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I don't think song ORDER was the issue we were discussing? How many tracks from POP did they play on any given night? Most of them.



and they were strategically placed next to classics so the audience wouldn't get too bored, and people still sat down during "Please" -- the best live song on Pop. that's what bands do on stadium tours: they couch their new material with old material so people don't get bored. it was *only* on Zoo TV where the new material was not only so strong, and the tour so strong, that they could go out and play virtually the entire new album at the start of the show and succeed brilliantly.
 
haha what the hell, you're not allowed an opinion on what albums could be considered a masterpiece if you only discovered them in 2001?? :lol:
 
i haven't told you my opinion, i've told you what the conventional wisdom is. the conventional wisdom is that ATYCLB is their third best album after JT and AB.

i get it, you don't like it. most other people disagree with you. and they hate Pop and think Bono was an annoying POS on R&H.

That's the narrative. The 'authorised' narrative, even. And it probably accounts for a decent % of the 'conventional wisdom', but you'll find just as many people who think U2 fell off a creative cliff around 1999, and that despite managing to shoot up the odd flare, they're not coming back.

Oh, except for Bono being an annoying POS on R&H. I think everyone universally agrees with that.
 
Here was me thinking music was subjective, so just because some people MIGHT like ATYCLB over AB that means they must have only discoverd the band in 2001? and even if they had only discoverd the band in 01, whats saying that havent listened to AB but still class ATYCLB ahead of it? its their opinion and they are more than entitled to it,

in my opinion AB is a better album than ATYCLB, but i wouldnt force that on anyone else.
 
The whole 'third masterpiece' thing with ATYCLB was really all wrapped up in U2 becoming a commercial force again. BD had both the teenagers and the AARP card holders bopping. Bono was in full Bonism mode, "We're reapplying for the job of best band in the world" (Christ how did he get away with THAT?). U2 created a fun dumb image for themselves, in stark contrast to the dark, laden, sardonic U2 of the 90's.
Now my feeling is history will be less kind to ATYCLB. Give it another ten years, and we'll see how many are still calling it a "masterpiece".
 
Only one Rolling Stone review called it the infamous 'third masterpiece', and I'm pretty sure U2 get to write their own reviews in Rolling Stone.

(I'm sounding like an ATYCLB hater, but I'm actually not.)
 
in all honesty, with the non-hardcore fanbase (ie. anyone who likes the band but not to the extent that they'll come to a forum on a daily basis) I think it's a fair assumption that it will be held in as high regard as it has been these past ten years. It's got the HUGE single in Beautiful Day, was a huge turnaround after the electronic 90s and got back to being more straightforward songs instead of the 'experimental stuff'.

Compare the wider opinion of Pop for instance. Read about U2 in a music mag and chances are the article will refer to the album as a blip or a disappointment. Read about Pop HERE and it makes a lot of top 5 lists from fans. Most people here prefer Achtung Baby to Joshua Tree which is supposedly THE U2 album.
I think around here people don't like ATYCLB as much, but this forum is not the majority of listeners. You could say that this means casual fans will listen to anything that's popular/safe/easier to listen to but that's just the way it is. It always happens with bands, for example I wish His N Hers by Pulp was called their masterpiece yet Different Class (because of the huge breakthrough of Common People before it) is called their absolute best album. Go to a pulp forum and people will disagree. Go to a Pink Floyd forum and people will be say Wish You Were Here is better than Dark Side Of The Moon and so on and so on. a more 'casual' listener (hate that phrase) will always prefer the more popular/famous album but thats no bad thing!! :)

ATYCLB is a great album, and for most people its very U2 and you can't hate them for loving it so much. even those of us hardcore fans who still love it including myself. but then again what do I know, it was my first U2 album back in 2000, so that means my opinion is less valid according to someone :wink:

now can we please get back to Achtung Baby?!?!
 
That's the narrative. The 'authorised' narrative, even. And it probably accounts for a decent % of the 'conventional wisdom', but you'll find just as many people who think U2 fell off a creative cliff around 1999, and that despite managing to shoot up the odd flare, they're not coming back.


agreed -- all i was pointing out is the narrative. i suppose i'm brainwashed enough to actually enjoy most of the albums fairly equally and appreciate them for various reasons (Boy is in my top 3). music is subjective, but i don't think that we can argue that much about which albums are successful or not, or successful for different reasons (not just sales).

however, i don't agree about the "equal numbers" things. most conventional fans, at least in their 30s on up loved Achtung, found Zooropa puzzling, and thought they lost their marbles with Pop and thought the whole irony thing was pretty stupid (and the irony on Pop really was underbaked ... i think of Pop as an enormous missed opportunity). ATYCLB was the warm, welcomed (as the narrative says) return to form and Bomb marked their inevitable status as highest quality "dad rock." NLOTH, an attempt to shake off said "dad rock" label, was met with general indifference because it wasn't too good, or too bad, to be noticed. that, i think, is where you'll find roughly 50% or more of the stadium, and the rest splinter groups -- the Achtung kids who are now in their 30s, the 2001-and-on'ers, the War-era parents taking their teenagers. i would say for the majority, the creative cliff happened in 1994 and the extended break between Zooropa and Pop fundamentally altered them.

i can see why people hate ATYCLB. i disagree with them, but my reasons for adoring it are fairly subjective (i bonded with it, deeply, during an interminably gray northern European winter where i pretty much came to terms with being gay ... can't get more subjective than that). it wouldn't feel like a U2 show without BD, and i know Stuck gets bashed around here but i think it's their second most enduring, timeless, instantly hummable melody (after ISHF). i hate "elevation" on record but it's great live. "kite" live became a thing of unspeakable beauty during the Aussie 2006 tour and represents the direction i wish they'd go. "walk on" is a step too far, but it's well performed and well constructed and enduring. i also think IALW and WH on record are as warm and inviting as they get. sure, the album falls apart a bit after that, but WILATW has great merit, and i'd put POE as another big missed opportunity, there's a good song in there somewhere.

the first 7 songs on ATYCLB are a big reason for the album's conventional wisdom "beloved" status and a big reason why they can sell out stadiums in 2011, and i think the band knows it.
 
i haven't told you my opinion, i've told you what the conventional wisdom is. the conventional wisdom is that ATYCLB is their third best album after JT and AB.

i get it, you don't like it. most other people disagree with you. and they hate Pop and think Bono was an annoying POS on R&H.

Conventional wisdom among who? I think a lot of "the world" thinks U2 lost it after Achtung Baby.
 
and they were strategically placed next to classics so the audience wouldn't get too bored, and people still sat down during "Please" -- the best live song on Pop. that's what bands do on stadium tours: they couch their new material with old material so people don't get bored. it was *only* on Zoo TV where the new material was not only so strong, and the tour so strong, that they could go out and play virtually the entire new album at the start of the show and succeed brilliantly.

So, you think Bono and the Edge assumed people would be bored during MOFO? Forgive me, but that's ridiculous. I think it's far more likely that they wanted to show that MOFO, in its insanity, felt natural right next to I Will Follow.

Are you really suggesting that U2 set out on that massive stadium tour not believing in the material that they were playing? Not believing in the album they were playing 10 tracks off of? Even later in the tour, they were playing most of the album PLUS HMTMKMKM.
 
why not?? i'm genuinely curious cause you seem like a pretty nice guy from what i've seen of you round here, it just seems a bit of a silly thing to say!

first U2 album I bought was ATYCLB in 2000, it led me wanting to hear a LOT more and owning every other album within 2 years and I'm a little embarrassed to say a pretty "encyclopedic" knowledge of this band that led a to lady at Zootopia (LCK, dunno if anyone here remembers her? she was lovely) mistaking me for some much older dude because I knew so much about the early years. :lol:
Admittedly not EVERYONE was some weird music nerd like I was at the age of 12-13 but becoming a fan through what you appear to be suggesting is the 'wrong' entry point doesn't make someone's opinion on U2's music any less valid than anyone else.
 
why not?? i'm genuinely curious cause you seem like a pretty nice guy from what i've seen of you round here, it just seems a bit of a silly thing to say!

first U2 album I bought was ATYCLB in 2000, it led me wanting to hear a LOT more and owning every other album within 2 years and I'm a little embarrassed to say a pretty "encyclopedic" knowledge of this band that led a to lady at Zootopia (LCK, dunno if anyone here remembers her? she was lovely) mistaking me for some much older dude because I knew so much about the early years. :lol:
Admittedly not EVERYONE was some weird music nerd like I was at the age of 12-13 but becoming a fan through what you appear to be suggesting is the 'wrong' entry point doesn't make someone's opinion on U2's music any less valid than anyone else.

Yeah, I know, and I was trying to say it in a silly way. I guess here's what I mean: If someone were to say to you, "I hear you're a big U2 fan. I love them. One is my favorite song. I especially like the version they did with Mary J. Blige. That's how I discovered them!" How would you react?

The Joshua Tree was the first U2 album I ever bought. R&H was the first NEW U2 album after I became a fan. They'll always have a special place in my heart. I still see Achtung Baby as a big experiment. I know that a lot of people on this board look down on R&H. This baffles me. Desire? Heartland? God Part II? Van Diemen's land? I mean, to me this is some of U2's best work. I love the film and I think the mix of new and live tracks was great. But, maybe I'm biased because this is when I came in.

If someone discovered U2 through the version of One that they did with MJB, they'll probably always hold a soft spot for that track. Those of us who have been listening to the band for decades generally think that track was crap. Someone who discovered U2 from ATYCLB probably does as well. But I think we always have a blind spot for the era that got us into the band.

So, when a fan tells me that ATYCLB got them into U2, I think they will probably have a bias which makes them blind to the weaknesses of a very uneven album.
 
Conventional wisdom among who? I think a lot of "the world" thinks U2 lost it after Achtung Baby.
I think ATYCLB is surely the most well known and loved U2 album after the two obvious albums. It's not my favourite but I like it more than a few U2 albums. I think you're forgetting what an important album ATYCLB was and is for U2. I don't support them playing that many songs from the album but you get my point. Most people attending a show hold ATYCLB as one of their favourite albums and U2 is acknowledging that. It seems that you deny all this because of your dislike of the album.
 
I think ATYCLB is surely the most well known and loved U2 album after the two obvious albums. It's not my favourite but I like it more than a few U2 albums. I think you're forgetting what an important album ATYCLB was and is for U2. I don't support them playing that many songs from the album but you get my point. Most people attending a show hold ATYCLB as one of their favourite albums and U2 is acknowledging that. It seems that you deny all this because of your dislike of the album.

When I run into normal people, they never have anything good to say about U2's work in the 2000s.
 
But, maybe I'm biased because this is when I came in.

[...]

So, when a fan tells me that Rattle And Hum got them into U2, I think they will probably have a bias which makes them blind to the weaknesses of a very uneven album.

Yes. And yes.
 
So, when a fan tells me that ATYCLB got them into U2, I think they will probably have a bias which makes them blind to the weaknesses of a very uneven album.

Maybe some people just have, god forbid, a different taste in music and don't share your opinion on those songs. Even those who've been hooked up on U2 before ATYCLB.
 
If someone were to say to you, "I hear you're a big U2 fan. I love them. One is my favorite song. I especially like the version they did with Mary J. Blige. That's how I discovered them!" How would you react?

By shunning them, because clearly they're an idiot.


alternate answer: "Hey, I know this great website where you can go to discuss U2! Go to u2.interference.com and start a thread about how awesome One with Mary J Blige is!"


correct answer: "Hey, that's cool. I'm not a huge fan of that version, but it's a great song for sure. What else have you heard? Do you want some recommendations about where to start with the rest of their catalog?"
 
Yes. And yes.

So, you re-edited my words to make it seem like I said something..... which in fact I DID say in a different part of the same post? How clever!

Look, I said I have my bias. We all do. I suspect that the majority of people here who would call ATYCLB a "MASTERPIECE" are those who came into the party late. That doesn't make me mean. :wink:
 
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