Steve Lillywhite On U2's 'No Line'

[U2DMfan]

U2 could have been produced by anyone from '80-'83 and still have had about the same amount of truly great material.

Lillywhite, (just my take), has produced U2's two worst albums.... or certainly some might say, two of their three or four worst albums 23 years apart.

That certainly has to say something to those that would agree with that sentiment.

 

[lazarus]

Could you focus/rephrase that statement?

This is what you originally said:

"If the BAND could just agree on a vision for an album (and write some songs before going into the studio) they'd be a lot better off. This is apparently impossible for U2 now. "

And I'm saying, they did that on ATYCLB. I think much of the album is half-baked in the way that nothing is given any breathing room. The songs themselves are good, it's just not a very interesting recording.

My point was that on one extreme, you have the above situation, and in them other you have the band chasing stuff for a year trying to wrangle it into the "perfect" single, which is ridiculous. In the middle is still a large opportunity to experiment and follow a muse, but at some point you have to pull the trigger. My guess is that Eno was like "fuck these songs already, let's have a crack at a good one that you shelved". The band declined, and instead turned to Lillywhite to help process their wannabe hits.

You contradict yourself, here. Re-read what you wrote, and then tell me how Eno is any different from Lillywhite when it comes to "stopping the band from indulging in their worst tendencies". Eno clearly doesn't have the power that you say he does, and he's actually been quite vocal about that.

My wording was sloppy there. Eno has a better idea of what they should be pursuing; I imagine Lillywhite is more of a Yes Man who knows how to lock down that "classic U2 sound". Granted, Eno wasn't able to stop the band, but it sounds like he put up more of a fight. Whatever Lillywhite's suggestions are, they don't appear to be as confrontational.

And it should be noted that Winter hasn't been shelved; it WAS kept as part of Linear, and is supposedly slotted for the next album. So the disagreement was more with how accessible the band wanted No Line to be, not necessarily about the quality of the material itself.

I'm not saying the albums would sound the same. The point I am making is that they need to stick with one producer per album if they want to achieve something cohesive, and that Lillywhite is historically just as capable of producing cohesive U2 albums as Eno/Lanois. Would they sound different? Yeah, of course. But, U2 needs to choose who they really want to work with, because running to another producer every time they hit a wall is generating hodgepodge albums that don't stack up to their greats.

And, dissing the guy who produced Boy, October, War, and had a hand in many of the band's greatest hits - including songs on Eno/Lanois albums - is ridiculous. I'll say it again - the people ultimately at fault for any of U2's flaws or failings are U2. It's their show, and they choose their collaborators, who are really glorified employees. Nobody will ever ever force Bono to put something on an album that Bono can't live with. Same goes for the others. Stop blaming everybody else when U2 fucks up.

Well I agree with all of this, and I'm certainly not trying to badmouth Steve Lillywhite. He's a reliable guy for what he does. I just don't think he's as creative as the other two producers, and think that U2 can achieve better results by just placing their faith in two talented men who are responsible for the majority of their best material. That's not a illogical conclusion to come to. You're right though, they need to stick with it and stop shopping things around when they aren't working right. The band is clearly to blame.

 

[ozeeko]

All that Lilywhite's U2 work does for me these days is remind me that i should be listening to The Joshua Tree, or ATYCLB for that matter.

Steve was better when U2 were a young post-punk band. His production style suited that style. Not that he wasn't guilty then for not saving them from the occasional embarrassment. The Refugee...Red Light...

 

[AEKU2]

All that Lilywhite's U2 work does for me these days is remind me that i should be listening to The Joshua Tree, or ATYCLB for that matter.

Steve was better when U2 were a young post-punk band. His production style suited that style. Not that he wasn't guilty then for not saving them from the occasional embarrassment. The Refugee...Red Light...

Yep but Red Light and Refugee were nothing like anything they'd ever done before, wouldnt that be avant-garde or experimental?

 

[ozeeko]

Yep but Red Light and Refugee were nothing like anything they'd ever done before

And thankfully they've never done anything like that again!

 

[AEKU2]

And thankfully they've never done anything like that again!

Just taking the piss actually. Agreed. It is funny how they tried a few new things on War such as the electric violin and the chicks on backing vocals on a few of the songs.

 

[AEKU2]

U2 could have been produced by anyone from '80-'83 and still have had about the same amount of truly great material.

Lillywhite, (just my take), has produced U2's two worst albums.... or certainly some might say, two of their three or four worst albums 23 years apart.

That certainly has to say something to those that would agree with that sentiment.

One should mention though that he was heavily involved in the production of AB. Dont know if it was for the better or worse.

 

[lazarus]

"Heavily involved"? He's credited with mixing three songs, and has a co-production credit on Wild Horses. Flood and Robbie Adams were more involved than he was.

 

[AEKU2]

"Heavily involved"? He's credited with mixing three songs, and has a co-production credit on Wild Horses. Flood and Robbie Adams were more involved than he was.

Get yourself a copy of RS dated back in late 1991 or early 1992. But yes credited with mixing three tracks and a co-production on the worst song on the album to me means heavily involved. Do i detect you will be scrutinising my posts like a proctologist from here on end?

 

[lazarus]

Well who ISN'T heavily involved, then? The caterer?

As I said, Flood and Robbie Adams had their hands in more AB shit than Lillywhite did.

 

[AEKU2]

Well who ISN'T heavily involved, then? The caterer?

As I said, Flood and Robbie Adams had their hands in more AB shit than Lillywhite did.

Still you gotta give him some credit. Mind you Ozeeko, Lillywhite didn't produce The Refugee on War. Was he involved dont know because credits tell you jack shit

 

[lazarus]

Sure, some credit is due. But your usage of "heavily-involved" implies that he had some kind of major impact on the album's sound and/or direction, which is false.

 

[AEKU2]

Sure, some credit is due. But your usage of "heavily-involved" implies that he had some kind of major impact on the album's sound and/or direction, which is false.

Mmm, the feeling of the proctologist digging away. Ok "involved". Do you feel better now?

 

[lazarus]

You brought up his involvement because someone said he produced two of the band's worst albums. I'm guessing you mentioned it as some kind of refutation.

Sure, he was also "involved" with JT, mixing two or three tracks. The main point is that he's better off in the background at this point, not being the captain of the ship.

 

[AEKU2]

You brought up his involvement because someone said he produced two of the band's worst albums. I'm guessing you mentioned it as some kind of refutation.

Sure, he was also "involved" with JT, mixing two or three tracks. The main point is that he's better off in the background at this point, not being the captain of the ship.

Its been a long time since he's been captain of the ship. In HTAAB he only took over once the ship was already sinking.

 

[beau99]

Still you gotta give him some credit. Mind you Ozeeko, Lillywhite didn't produce The Refugee on War. Was he involved dont know because credits tell you jack shit

Steve mixed "The Refugee", according to the credits.

 

[AEKU2]

Steve mixed "The Refugee", according to the credits.

Cool

 

[U2girl]

I wonder how Brian Eno and Daniel Lanois feel when Bono or whoever tells them "we're bringing Steve in to polish things up a bit." Haha.

Do you think Eno holds a grudge against Lillywhite now that Winter (can you imagine the "U2 rips off Coldplay" talk in NLOTH reviews?) didn't make the cut for NLOTH ? Or was that entirely the band's call ?


As for keeping the band from their worst self-indulgencies, yeah...Passengers ftw.

 

[65980]

I think Lillywhite is fantastic, based on his pedigree. To wit: Peter Gabriel, Simple Minds, Talking Heads, Morrissey, The Pogues, Phish, Travis, The La's, The Rolling Stones, Jason Mraz, Chris Cornell, Crowded House. I mean, obviously he sucks!

Can we agree that not every one of those artists sounds exactly like U2 doing 'I Will Follow' or 'Vertigo'? Can we then conclude that Lillywhite does not suck because he didn't produce your favorite U2 album?

I mean, the guy only took a baby-band and made a great debut with them, then took them to their commerical breakthrough (War), without which they wouldn't have gotten a bigger contract with Island and been able to afford Eno and Lanois.

Is it always necessary to hate one thing and love the other?

(P.S. I think 'The Refugee' is great.)

 

[Slapnutz]

Lillywhite was fantastic. But that was then, this is now. He's often regarded as the man responsible for kick starting the horrible compressed sound movement.

He should never have quit his job at Columbia Records as senior VP of A&R. The suit and tie really suited him.

 

[tomtom]

It's simple, really. There's more than a plethora of evidence that Lillywhite is little more than a "hit-maker". His production and taste ends up in straightforward, hit-you-on-the-head-catchy, devoid-of-texture, dumb rock songs. And I'm really not interested in hearing U2 do that. Moreover, on this occasion, his involvement totally screwed up the cohesiveness and flow of the album. So I hate him.

You know who he should be producing? BRMC. They do that stuff well, and it looks like that's pretty much all they can do. His talents would come in handy there.

 

[santiago]

It's simple, really. There's more than a plethora of evidence that Lillywhite is little more than a "hit-maker". His production and taste ends up in straightforward, hit-you-on-the-head-catchy, devoid-of-texture, dumb rock songs. And I'm really not interested in hearing U2 do that. Moreover, on this occasion, his involvement totally screwed up the cohesiveness and flow of the album. So I hate him.

I don't think so. How about SYCMOYO? (where the band added the falsetto part after Lillywhite suggested it needed more of a chorus) How about WOWY?

Hardly what you can call "straightforward, hit-you-on-the-head-catchy, devoid-of-texture, dumb rock songs".


I agree that his contributions to NLTOH have not been that great (still, we don't know exactly what he did on UC and Magnificent), but he is a part of the U2 team of producers and his influence has in some cases been for the good.

 

[ahittle]

He's often regarded as the man responsible for kick starting the horrible compressed sound movement.

That's interesting. How do you figure? What are some of his early offenders? (not arguing - genuinely interested!)

 

[lazarus]

I don't think so. How about SYCMOYO? (where the band added the falsetto part after Lillywhite suggested it needed more of a chorus) How about WOWY?

Hardly what you can call "straightforward, hit-you-on-the-head-catchy, devoid-of-texture, dumb rock songs".

Uhh, yeah that falsetto steers that song into the Adult Contemporary direction. It's a nice little bit, but it's definitely poppy.

Also, he MIXED With Or Without You, didn't produce it.

 

[Salome]

As for keeping the band from their worst self-indulgencies, yeah...Passengers ftw.

it's funny cause it's true

 

[tomtom]

I have no problems with Passengers. I love the album. I wouldn't be terribly pleased if it was the norm rather than the exception, but I'd take another Passengers-like album over an album full of Stand Up Comedies any day of the week.

My hope is that SUC dies a quick death on the tour ala God Will Send His Angels or Do You Feel Loved, but I have my doubts.

 

[U2DMfan]

(P.S. I think 'The Refugee' is great.)

I do too. That makes you and me one of the dozen fans who actually like it.

I also love Peter Gabriel's album called 'Security' in the U.S. (LP3?)
Which, if memory serves was produced by Lillywhite.

Doesn't mean that the guy isn't a capable producer or that he's 'beyond' capturing some great stuff, it's that... at this point and time in U2's career, he doesn't bring the best out in them.

He'd rather U2 go for the obvious and I would rather U2 not.
Some people are good at that sort of thing and I think he is.
Why else would U2 bring him in as a 'closer' over Eno and Lanois?

 

[namkcuR]

Quit hating on Passengers. It's a brilliant work of art.

 

[thesandbox]

I think Lillywhite is fantastic, based on his pedigree. To wit: Peter Gabriel, Simple Minds, Talking Heads, Morrissey, The Pogues, Phish, Travis, The La's, The Rolling Stones, Jason Mraz, Chris Cornell, Crowded House. I mean, obviously he sucks!

Can we agree that not every one of those artists sounds exactly like U2 doing 'I Will Follow' or 'Vertigo'? Can we then conclude that Lillywhite does not suck because he didn't produce your favorite U2 album?

I mean, the guy only took a baby-band and made a great debut with them, then took them to their commerical breakthrough (War), without which they wouldn't have gotten a bigger contract with Island and been able to afford Eno and Lanois.

Is it always necessary to hate one thing and love the other?

(P.S. I think 'The Refugee' is great.)

and don't forget Superchick
...which by the way I think was his first signing to Columbia as VP of A&R...go firure

 

[ozeeko]

I think Lillywhite is fantastic, based on his pedigree. To wit: Peter Gabriel, Simple Minds, Talking Heads, Morrissey, The Pogues, Phish, Travis, The La's, The Rolling Stones, Jason Mraz, Chris Cornell, Crowded House. I mean, obviously he sucks!

Can we agree that not every one of those artists sounds exactly like U2 doing 'I Will Follow' or 'Vertigo'? Can we then conclude that Lillywhite does not suck because he didn't produce your favorite U2 album?

I mean, the guy only took a baby-band and made a great debut with them, then took them to their commerical breakthrough (War), without which they wouldn't have gotten a bigger contract with Island and been able to afford Eno and Lanois.

Is it always necessary to hate one thing and love the other?

(P.S. I think 'The Refugee' is great.)

There's no disputing what he did in the past. For the first 3 albums Lillywhite did an excellent job, the sound was right for where the band was at that time.

I think with UF, U2 grew as songwriters, and Eno and Lanois were big influences. I don't recall any instances BOY-WAR when Lillywhite helped them cultivate a song, but Eno and Lanois certainly played a hand with that, all thru U2's career. I think the band was ready to leave Lillywhite, and left at the right time. They outgrew him, only to return on occasion for some alternate mixes.

To be honest I think U2 are ready to leave Eno and Lanois, I would recommend they start messing around with a different producer, someone out of U2's camp who is known for being a visionary. Not Rubin, for his approach is to strip back everything to bare bones, a method that I personally feel wouldn't suit U2's style. I think someone else who has a more hands on approach and would get them to think outside the box, in the ways that Eno and Lanois have.

Where me and others find Lillywhite to be a problem these days is the simple fact that he seems to be called in to produce something expected, something predictable in sound that many people are familar with, a sort of old, retro U2 sound. I think this could work if they were producing songs that sounded like the early 80's, a more post-punk style, but in fact they aren't doing that, they are chasing a Joshua Tree mood and anthemic sound that they discovered while working with Eno and Lanois. So for me it just isn't working that well. And many of us are just plain tired of the optimistic pop songs with a slight rocky edge (you can take my use of the word 'edge' in 2 ways).

That's all i'm saying. I don't hate the man and wish death on him, I just don't think there's anything left to be discovered with him as a producer. They are ready to just cut ties and try something completely new, something even without Eno and Lanois.