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Old 05-04-2004, 09:26 AM   #1
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how often do new U2 shows surface?

well obviously the new tour ones will surface quick but as for older ones whether they be audio or vid do they turn up much anymore ?
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Old 05-06-2004, 12:08 AM   #2
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... new *older* shows don't really turn up out of thin air; when such shows do pop out, it's because someone did some work and dug them up (and, on occasion, someone lucks out and finds something by chance). People are still out there digging out gems, but some things just don't circulate as much, given the downloading epidemics.
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Old 05-06-2004, 11:12 AM   #3
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Where do they find them?
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Old 05-07-2004, 08:37 PM   #4
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The ElevaSHN crew pretty much ruined it for everyone in 2001 and 2002. It became a free-for-all with new shows and taper's wishes were all but ignored. I personally know of one audience taper that will never release another show of ANY band he tapes because of the way people acted with his U2 material. This guy does about 30-40 shows a year and none of it will ever see the light of day now. The old guard is still around and they are still taping...they just got pushed around too much by greedy traders. These people are the ones that hold the key to unlocking older U2 shows and it's too bad things got so out of control during and after the Elevation Tour.
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Old 05-07-2004, 10:55 PM   #5
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. . . too many people have the post-Napster mentality, that everything should be available for instant download and instant gratification. It seems to be heading down the same path in the DVD world (torrents galore).

I know of numerous tapers and oldtime collectors who arenít releasing anything anymore (aside from trading with a few trusted friends), because of the freeloading climate. This has nothing to do with people getting off on power trips and not being into sharing, although the downloaders will certainly condemn anyone who questions the downloading climate.

I donít see it as a problem if a taper tapes a show and offers up his own tape for downloading; but it is a problem when a third party hosts up someone elseís tape, without the taperís permission, for downloading. The tired argument that itís all the taperís fault, and the taper shouldnít trade out his tape at all, if he doesnít want it hubbed or torrented, is an invitation for tapers not to circulate their stuff.

I genuinely hope that on the upcoming tour, the hubbers and torrenters organize their own taping brigades, and spread their OWN master tapes on the hubs/torrents (rather than mass distributing someone elseís tape who never wanted it mass distributed).
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Old 05-07-2004, 11:19 PM   #6
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ElevaSHN?

Please explain.
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Old 05-08-2004, 04:42 AM   #7
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I'm totally failing to see what's wrong with torrenting and other forms of downloading online. Why wouldn't tapers want their work online for others to enjoy as well? I can't think of a single non-selfish motive. It's not as if they're missing out on any money or other proceeds by having it spread to the maximum amount of people.
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Old 05-08-2004, 11:11 AM   #8
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Would you guys repost in English please.
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Old 05-08-2004, 01:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
I'm totally failing to see what's wrong with torrenting and other forms of downloading online. Why wouldn't tapers want their work online for others to enjoy as well? I can't think of a single non-selfish motive. It's not as if they're missing out on any money or other proceeds by having it spread to the maximum amount of people.
Here we go again. There are alot of reasons actually. Most tapers dont like MP3 material and they definately dont want their recording converted to it. People ignore this even when they know the taper requested it not be converted to MP3 and put it up on a server. Their excuse is precisely what Huskies pointed out. Stating that the taper traded it out, its just to bad. This is really biting the hand that feeds you IMO and that is never a smart move. Tapers generally dont like MP3 conversions because people put them to CD and then trade them out. Creating inferior recordings and flooding the trading world with bad recordings. People can be real smart asses when it comes to putting recording up and what this does is cause tapers to pull back. I still dont get the mentality of doing that. Send me more recordings that you spent the time and money on, I will ignore your wishes with it, call you an ass or selfish for not wanting it on a server, but expect you to share your future recordings with me so I can do the same thing to you. YOU do the math as to why more doesnt surface.

The other part that people argue is that when you torrent something or put it on an open server you lose that trading relationship that develops when you do snail mail. People are not accountable. People download a show for free and then put it on Ebay for sale. For most tapers this is a complete nightmare, their recording is being sold. Some of you may laugh about the trading relationship thing. But its absolutely true. I met some great friends from snail mail trading back in the late 80's and early 90's. People I eventually met in person and went to shows with. People I still keep in touch with. Some artists agree also. Dave Matthews has asked that his shows not be put on servers for distribution for this very reason.

People will do what they want, but dont ever demand a taper share anything. Yes, some are assholes and are in it for the ego trip. But most arent. Most are in to trade for other master recordings. Putting it up on a server doesnt accomplish this and creates alot of problems. If you dont like it, invest the time and money (A rig that will produce a great recording is going to run about $1500 minimum) and sacrifice part of your enjoyment of the show and the risk of getting caught and booted from the venue and do it yourself. Then you can share your recording, your problem is solved then.
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Old 05-08-2004, 03:35 PM   #10
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Ok. That post I understood, and it explained a lot in very clear, though understandably pointed, language.
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Old 05-08-2004, 04:43 PM   #11
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Question to Blue Room or anyone else in the know. Has the problems with U2shn been resolved within the mods of that group? What I mean is have they changed their policy towards 3rd party shn'ing or is this going to be the same situation next tour?

I agree that even now U2 dvd's are being thrown onto STG without permission (of course anyone who seeds these things needs to be on their 1-2 weeks!) and causing the same problem in a different medium. (Although I think dvd tapers are more prone to selling shows themselves from what I've seen). While I'm into dvd trading myself, the fact that so many shows of the bands I like show up on STG really hurts the general collecting and trading. If all the U2 dvd's are eventually going to show up on STG then no one will work hard at finding and trading for shows, they'll just sit wait and whine. Plus the tapers will start doing even more "rare trade only" shows and bypassing the fans all over again.

sigh*
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Old 05-08-2004, 06:59 PM   #12
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from what i understand, certain hub moderators tend to flip flop their stance on the third party SHNing,a nd in the end condone it (even if not explicitly). iíve seen some say that theyíll pull down a show if the taper comes forward and asks them too, but by then the damage is long done. also, some tapers want to stay lowkey and private, and itís ludicrous for hub runners to demand a taper to contact them.

the scientist is right, hwen people torrent shows (in either audio or DVD format) without the taperís permission, it utliamtely hurts general collecting and trading. despite the appearance that there are so many shows to just go out and download, there are many more shows that wonít surface anytime soon, or at all, thanks the ďthird party torrentingĒ issues. part of the problem too is that the third party torrenters tend to become heros to all the people who want to sit home and download for free and who donít put any effort into putting new shows back into the pool, which only increases the will of the third party torrenters to torrent even more stuff, as they see themslves as heros of sorts.

itís not about selfishness, as Axver wrongly suggests. and as huskies and blue room suggest, the best solution is for the pro-torrenters to take some initiative to create their own taping group (now is a great time to start organizing people, equipment) and torrent their own tapes. i love it when people respodn that they donít have the money and donít want to put forth the effort to invest in taping, yet they can afford a computer, blank media, and a cable modem connection.
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Old 05-11-2004, 01:46 PM   #13
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I'm an Audio BT Mod over at STG and I've had tapers ask me to pull shows and I've done it instantly (well, as instanly as I read my PMs/email). It's earned me quite a few nasty PMs but I don't really care. I've told tapers that they should start explicitely writing "please do not put up on any ftp site or bit torrent site". Some seeders are just clueless, but they will understand that. Some, of course, will just remove that line, but there are other consciencious people there who will see the show, recognize the text file and see it is altered and Report it. And, I'll see the Report and remove it.

I've been pushing for the same to be done over in the DVD forum.
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by the white flag
itís not about selfishness, as Axver wrongly suggests.
From where I sit, all the reasons I can imagine why someone would not want their shows online stem from selfishness of some description or another - they want it for themselves, they want to keep it 'rare', and so on. Want to give me some reasons against torrenting? Really, it comes down to why you tape a show and why you give a copy to anyone else. I'd write more on my thoughts but I should be writing a mathematics assignment.

Quote:
i love it when people respodn that they donít have the money and donít want to put forth the effort to invest in taping, yet they can afford a computer, blank media, and a cable modem connection.
I bloody hate it when people say that because it ignores the fact people are in vastly different situations. I'm seventeen and due to an eyesight impairment, I cannot perform most jobs people my age can, so I have no job and thus no income. My computer was a Christmas present, my DSL modem a birthday present, my Internet is paid for by my mother, and I can barely afford to buy blank media from the meagre allowance the government gives me, especially seeing I'm saving up money for university and the U2 tour next year (I'll be flying from Australia to the USA to see them). I would dearly love to invest in taping, I hate relying on other people to do things and I'd be much happier taping a show myself (then I could also torrent it for everyone else), but there's no way known I can afford that. So before you make vast assumptions, think a little that not everyone's able to afford everything.

Now I really do need to get to that assignment ...
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Old 05-11-2004, 07:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


From where I sit, all the reasons I can imagine why someone would not want their shows online stem from selfishness of some description or another - they want it for themselves, they want to keep it 'rare', and so on. Want to give me some reasons against torrenting? Really, it comes down to why you tape a show and why you give a copy to anyone else. I'd write more on my thoughts but I should be writing a mathematics assignment.
Ok, so exactly how do you disagree with the reasons I listed why tapers dont want their shows on servers? And WHERE is it that you sit exactly that tells you its selfish??? Please enlighten me.
Honestly, your response seems rather smug. Exactly what I was referring to in my post especially considering you dont even tape. If you are not putting your butt on the line taping then I really dont think you have any right to judge tapers or call them selfish. I have heard your story a million times and it almost ALWAYS comes from a downloader who has never even thought of taping or only pays lip service to it. Its the old, I would tape and share if I could, had the money, etc. That really is convenient and weak considering you have dont even plan to tape. Again, does this make sense. I want what the tapers are doing, but I dont want to do it myself, but if you dont give it to me for nothing, right away, you (the taper) are selfish??? What is wrong with this picture? Most tapers trade, they just dont want their stuff on a server. There is NOTHING selfish about that. I know that may actually require some effort by fans to obtain a recording if they have to find a trader and set up an actual trade (GASP, say it isnt so!!). Seems to be this internet generation that just wants everything handed to them, right away, with no effort, for nothing. I think its a bad trend. People need to be able to keep their word and be held accountable for things and actually have to put forth some effort occasionally.

Sorry if this seems like an attack, but your attitude is exactly what drives alot of tapers away. So you are planning to go to some shows. Well, get with one of your torrent buddies who do tape and ask to borrow their equipment and actually TAPE. Put YOUR butt on the line and risk getting caught and sacrifice some of YOUR enjoyment.
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Old 05-12-2004, 02:50 AM   #16
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Gah. Let's go over this again.

- I would tape if I could.
- However, I can't tape.
- I do not have the money to afford the equipment and I don't know anyone who's got anything I can use.
- Why don't I have the money?
1. I begin university next year. University's not cheap.
2. I will be flying over to the USA in early 2005 too. My ticket will be roughly AUS$2000+. Not cheap either.
3. The government gives me a pathetically meagre allowance and I have severe trouble finding a job due to my limited eyesight. I imagine this limited eyesight would also restrict my ability to tape because I just plain don't see things (I'd most likely not see some security guy until he's taking my equipment off me). I can't really afford to even trade but my mother's kind enough to pay for postage.
4. Put this all together and there's no way I'm going to be able to afford taping equipment.
- I would dearly love to tape. I hate relying on other people to do things for me, and recording a U2 show I go to is no exception. If I could go home with a recording of the show and then torrent it the next day, I would be extremely happy. I'm going to try to see if anyone I know does actually have equipment and can teach me what to do, but to my knowledge, that's a vain hope.

Really, I don't understand why tapers don't want their work torrented. It's a big "so what?" to me. What do they lose? Nothing unless they're going to make people pay for their concerts, and I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm opposed to such a transaction. Their work's not copywritten or anything like that, so they have no grounds for complaint in that area. From my perspective, the best thing to do is make a recording available to the greatest amount of people. We all know everyone enjoys a new show, especially if they went to it. What's so wrong with making these people happy? What's so wrong with doing something really nice such as making your show available to lots of people?

Sure, tapers are under no obligation to make their material available, I agree with that and if they don't want to make it public, that's their decision. But why would they want to essentially hoard it all to themselves? So they can be all "I have a rare recording!" or act elitist? So they can deny shows to other people who are searching high and low for them? It makes no sense. I don't see why they'd want to keep it to themselves. You raise a legitimate point that some downloaders want shows and they want them NOW, DAMNIT! I agree that's a rather selfish attitude too; one shouldn't expect these things. But not all downloaders are like that. Personally, if something crops up that I'm interested in, I'll download it, but if I have to wait some time or do a physical trade, I'm cool with that. I simply think the best thing to do is to make a recording widely available to facilitate maximum enjoyment.

I would also like to say that I do not condone conversion to MP3. I'm currently trying to replace all my MP3 bootlegs. However, I think with enhancements in Internet speed, MP3 will hopefully become obsolete in favour of SHN. I happen to have a copy of The Cry/The Electric Co. from 31 August 1984, Wellington, and I understand most bootlegs do not have this song. I know some people who'd like a copy and I could've converted it to MP3 to send it quickly, but I won't, I'm keeping it in SHN and I've told them to wait until I have holidays and thus time to send it to them.
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Old 05-12-2004, 05:54 AM   #17
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I guess there will always be less people taping than there will be downloading, simply because U2 can't go everywhere with their tours and because not everyone is as engaged in live music or can't afford it.
And there will be those who mind putting their recording out in public (they're not obligated, but then again, is it their music to decide what happens to it? besides it's their own expense and risk of getting caught, that is not other people's problem) and those who don't - still, there will be music out there, with the coming of internet and new sound formats.
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:25 AM   #18
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Don't get me wrong, I know I'm lucky that I have internet access and that I've come to a U2 forum where generous people have helped me out, and I'm not an expert by no means on this matter.
I guess I understand the MP3 rules and that someone might be mad if their show circulates without permission. (in a way though, can you really demand what someone else does with their copy?) And besides, virtually nobody would have any U2's live music in the first place if it wasn't for the trading concept.

It's just that ... many may not be able to enjoy/share U2's music because some people ignore a taper's wishes.
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Old 05-12-2004, 09:40 AM   #19
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Axver, you just glazed right over my post again and you didnt answer my question to you. I listed WHY tapers dont want their shows on a server and you just ignored it. They are not "hoarding" (LOL, love it when that term gets thrown out there). Most trade, and thats just it. They TRADE, and they want to get other master recording from other tapers with it. If its on a server they cant do this. They dont mind if people TRADE their recordings but they dont want it on a server. AGAIN, they dont mind trading (as was done for 17 years prior to the net) they just dont want it on a server. AGAIN, they dont mind TRADING, they just dont want it on a server. If you trade through the mail you know where the recording is going and who it is going to. There is a level of accountability there that just doesnt exist with the torrent crowd. Even private one to one SHN sharing isnt to bad, at least there is some accountability there as well. Its the public server part that alot of tapers dont like.

Also, the money issue. You said yourself you are going to shows in the U.S on the next tour. "BORROW" a tapers equipment and tape. I'am sure one of the tapers in your downloading/torrent crowd will let you borrow their equipment. I can guarantee you someone will let you borrow to tape ANY Australian shows. You wont be out any money and you can put your butt on the line and share YOUR recording. Problem solved.
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Old 05-12-2004, 12:44 PM   #20
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Let's not get the fact hidden in... most tapers don't have any issues with online trading. The few folks that do IEM/ALD stuff, of course do, but those aren't hosted on STG. (Well, one Mix was, and the guy that taped it bitched and he was slammed in the thread, as most folks outside of U2 circles don't get the whole hoarding thing)

What DVD's have been hosted that the taper didn't want hosted? Most of them have been hosted by either the taper, or the person that created the DVD, with permission.
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