how often do new U2 shows surface?

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In some ways I see no difference between here and in the Radiohead atease community.
 
I wouldn't call myself a U2 taper, but I taped two 2001 shows and at the time was a casual fan of the music but wanted to tape them. Also I was totally unaware what the elevaSHN people or folks in the U2 trading community were doing and behaving.

Didn't take long for one of my shows to appear on servers and then on ebay with a lame bootleg nickname (the SHNs were made from 2nd digital gen audio discs), as I traded out the show to a few people on audio discs, including one or two tapers.

Unfortunately I didn't find out what happened to the show until much later (it was pimped on ebay with a lame bootleg name, SHN'd to servers with a text file with exact source/transfer that I happened to have told this one guy who I thought just wanted it for his records). I definitely did not authorize this but how was I to know the show was going to end up this way? Definitely not cool what some of the folks out there did. What I didn't know hurt me, but I won't let that happen again.

So count me in as one of the anti-server people. and be much more discreet with the handling of my masters in the future.

Also, ChrisEdge was mentioning the names Wang, Coluzzi, Brown etc. Don't forget those guys are from the taper friendly DMB camp. They were literally "born" to share shows and it is in their nature, even if they share a master was done via stealth. These fellows and their masters are the exception, not the norm. Frankly I think this pro-sharing via servers really ruined it for the average fan (and pro server supporter) who think shows should be available freely and immediately. It just doesn't work that way.

I recognize a few folks who have also posted on the Coldplay forum. I find it hilarious how this one guy used to be pro-server, and pro-sharing (not a taper) but is now siding with the tapers and taking an active anti-server stance, although spending quite a bit of time on hubs and such. Too bad those old posts got deleted as they were so funny I almost cried. But I digress....
 
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I have trading partners at both sides. It's not a question of anti-server/ pro server. That's what I find annoying in this debate. It's about respecting what the taper wants with his tape. How can you not respect the Wangs, Browns etc. Their arguments are valid.
But I also respect the non server tapers For example: the person who taped Vienna 27-7 2001. He told me many interesting things about taping and his point of view and I respect that he doesn't want his tapes on servers. His arguments are also valid.

And IMO it's also about netiquette. Part of netiquette is that you don't brag about your recordings, especially not when there's a good recording available for the masses (what happened with Scott Brown's NY 10-9-2003 RH recording at STG was just as annoying as 3rd party SHN'ing in my book).

Also for me end of story. I see you all next year and maybe we will trade someday...
 
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Pooka, glad you could speak up as a admitted taper who doesn't dig putting your shows on the servers. At least you can admit it.

As far as the tapers I mentioned, they aren't just into DMB. They tape many different bands and are into sharing all of them. Everything from Janes Addiction, U2, Radiohead, Alanis Morrissette, etc...

I belong to Dat-Heads which is probably the oldest online tapers "club" around. The vast majority of them support servers. This (STG, Hubs, etc) was debated not that long ago and plenty of tapers were amazed anyone would even be against it, because they got the whole thing about sharing and not trying to control what is not yours.

I have received plenty of support emails since I posted this in the few places I have. Yet the same old few have come out against it. Like the movie I can guess the ending to, most of the folks are the same old folks against it. Actually glad to see someone "new" post they don't like it. It's boring when it's always BlueRoomUltravioletWolferineWhiteFlag. ragging on servers. Welcome!
 
Chrisedge said:


U2girl (?)

Just a regular poster, I have traded some shows vial snail mail but that was it - not a taper and not a downloader.

I'm interested in this topic for some reason, as a fan I guess and because we know some bands allow taping and ever sell their live shows...from the start of this thread I was totally "everything should be available to everyone".

But the more I think the more I'm not so sure which side I agree with. On one hand it's true that it would not kill anyone to respect taper's wishes about the show, on the other hand I also agree with the argument that if the taper shares his show even with one person, it's out of control. (no pun intended) It's ultimately up to him, I suppose. I also think that if tapers have certain wishes, they should speak up from the start - from what I understand, a lot of them started complaining after all the mess happened. And then if anyone breaks the rules, don't trade with them anymore instead of blocking out everything to everyone.

I also think there will always be those who agree with their shows on the internet (it is a great way to spread live music of your favorite band), and those who don't and who choose to share their "original" versions with other tapers exclusively.
 
U2girl said:


Just a regular poster, I have traded some shows vial snail mail but that was it - not a taper and not a downloader.

I'm interested in this topic for some reason, as a fan I guess and because we know some bands allow taping and ever sell their live shows...from the start of this thread I was totally "everything should be available to everyone".

But the more I think the more I'm not so sure which side I agree with. On one hand it's true that it would not kill anyone to respect taper's wishes about the show, on the other hand I also agree with the argument that if the taper shares his show even with one person, it's out of control. (no pun intended) It's ultimately up to him, I suppose. I also think that if tapers have certain wishes, they should speak up from the start - from what I understand, a lot of them started complaining after all the mess happened. And then if anyone breaks the rules, don't trade with them anymore instead of blocking out everything to everyone.

I also think there will always be those who agree with their shows on the internet (it is a great way to spread live music of your favorite band), and those who don't and who choose to share their "original" versions with other tapers exclusively.

I agree with almost all of it.
U2girl said:

And then if anyone breaks the rules, don't trade with them anymore instead of blocking out everything to everyone.


Most of the time, the taper isn't the one trading with the people who end up "breaking" the rule. So how can you be sure the person who broke it, knew what the rule was? People end up in flame wars, and get their names dragged around (One of these people emailed me after I posted) because something was traded 5 times and ended up with them and they didn't know the rule.

BTW, to answer "part" of the original question, some nice Popmart shows just surfaced in the last few months, that I had not seen on peoples lists, so it still can take years for new shows to surface.
 
Chrisedge said:
Pooka, glad you could speak up as a admitted taper who doesn't dig putting your shows on the servers. At least you can admit it.

As far as the tapers I mentioned, they aren't just into DMB. They tape many different bands and are into sharing all of them. Everything from Janes Addiction, U2, Radiohead, Alanis Morrissette, etc...

I belong to Dat-Heads which is probably the oldest online tapers "club" around. The vast majority of them support servers. This (STG, Hubs, etc) was debated not that long ago and plenty of tapers were amazed anyone would even be against it, because they got the whole thing about sharing and not trying to control what is not yours.

I have received plenty of support emails since I posted this in the few places I have. Yet the same old few have come out against it. Like the movie I can guess the ending to, most of the folks are the same old folks against it. Actually glad to see someone "new" post they don't like it. It's boring when it's always BlueRoomUltravioletWolferineWhiteFlag. ragging on servers. Welcome!

Again the Wangs, Browns, Coluzzi's are hard core DMB fans/tapers and are from that taper friendly camp, and thus have the mentality to share. These fellows have done multiple DMB shows and have traveled very far for them.

Other than that they also like taping other taper unfriendly acts, which I have already alluded to their masters being done in stealth. Anyone who has been around for a while knows very well they share a lot of bands that are both taper friendly and unfriendly. However the point remains that they are bigger fans of DMB than these other stealth taping bands, and with a sharing/pro-server/pro STG mentality that will override anything else. You always see the same names pop up when such shows are shared. Again my point is that within the U2 taping community, you don't have many other tapers like them that have this stance.

Another thing about DAT Heads is that it was started by the Phish people (the email address prefix says it all), which also attracts a big group of Dead Heads (needless to say, also taper friendly) amongst others. A vast majority of subscribers are from taper friendly camps, and OF COURSE they are pro-server and have been around much longer than the folks here. But even back in the day they equated trading with sharing. They just see servers/stg as an efficient way to get their tapes out to more people.

There are still folks who believe in good ol' 1:1 trading. While that number may seem to be dwindling, the concept and the belief will never die out. You can download all the available shows you want, but there will still be older masters or alternate versions (possibly way better than what is being spread or in circulation) to add to one's collection. This has already been said before many times but there's something great about interacting with a person 1:1, locating a rare find in someone else's collection who is not an active taper in a particular band's community, and not just via some hub chat room or AIM/MSN messenger where the discussion is only restricted to one band. These days even 1:1 trading can be dangerous because if it is someone you don't know, you can't trust a person to implicitly take care of your tape unless you specify it so. Which is why people form their own taping circles to cover whatever they need so they don't need outsiders to screw things up as much as possible.
 
I still believe the best way to get the really good stuff is through old fashioned trading. This does not necessarily exclude one to one FTP trading (although there are still some old school holdouts who will only trade via mail). Like it or not, many of the great older shows that have surfaced have surfaced via the efforts of the one to one traders. Most shows don't arise from thin air, but surface because someone has made an effort and expended the time and energy to find them (yes, on occasion someone simply lucks out). Chrisedge, even you admit that old fashioned trading is a great way to uncover stuff that might be hiding under the radar. As much as you slam the oldschool snailmailers and their mentality, but-for them a lot of the shows that so many people are able to enjoy wouldn't have been "found" or circulated in the first place. Trading ultimately benefits everyone because more shows circulate in the long run, and it also gives people incentives to go and do some work (and, again, more shows circulate in the long run).

Chrisedge talks about imposing and accuses snail mailers of imposing their views on everyone else, but when someone hosts or torrents a show never intended for public mass distribution, they ARE implicitly imposing their views on others, because once a tape is torrented or hubbed, it's out there and there's no taking it back. Pulling it off is a nice gesture, but the damage is already done at that point.

Chrisedge, you want names of people who don't want their tapes hosted, but you implicitly admit that you don't know, beyond the names you mention, that all tapers have authorized their tapes for torrenting or hubbing. I'm not about to name names of tapers unhappy to learn that their tapes ended up on the ElevaSHN or other hubs, as there are people who, for a lot of reasons, don't want their names blasted all over the place. But these people do exist, and there are others who haven't released tapes at all because of what they saw happen to others and the lack of accountability out there.

You label me as anti-server, but I don't have a problem with servers where the taper has seeded or authorized his own master tape, and I think this is the point that gets missed.

It's not surprising that more people will be pro-server, given that the vast overwhelming majority simply want to be able to have quick, easy, effortless access to shows, without having to do any work whatsoever.

Soulrock talks about "compromise," so what's wrong with advocating for a system that only seeds/torrents/hubs taper authorized shows? And why do people get condemned when they suggest that all of the pro-downloading folks organize their own taping crews? What is so offensive about suggesting that everyone make a greater effort to contribute to the pool, instead of trashing on the people actually doing the work but who may not want their tapes mass distributed?

Not wanting one's tape mass distributed is NOT the same thing as not sharing. Trading is sharing, and limited trading is still sharing, although people who haven't invested much time and effort into collecting shows may not readily understand this point. There will likely always be tapers who want their tapes mass distributed, and those who don't. What is wrong with advocating for a system that respects these different points of view? In the end, it's best for everyone to consider, and respect, the different needs of different tapers, even though you may not agree or even totally understand where each taper is coming from.
 
Actually, I don't slam old school trading. I still do lots of it that way as well. I agree with everything you say. My beef is when people slam the servers and make sarastic comments all the time. 99% of the shows that were hosted last tour were all ok by the taper. Do I want 100% approval?, you bet. This tour I sincerely hope that is the case. There already is a great group of pro-server tapers. They are the ones that made the best (circulating) tapes out there :)

If there is that many tapers that don't want their shows hosted, they are awfully quiet.
 
Chrisedge said:

If there is that many tapers that don't want their shows hosted, they are awfully quiet.

huskies (AntiServer)
ultraviolet_j (AntiServer)
Blue Room (AntiServer)
The Scientist (AntiServer)
the white flag (AntiServer)
*Wolverine* (AntiServer)
Pooka (AntiServer)

That's quiet? Plus these guys aren't all ANTI-server, they are just pro-authorized seeding and want the pro-sharers to take some resposibility. Lots of private tapers don't frequent interference you know and a taper dosen't often follow ONE band.

Pooka said:
I recognize a few folks who have also posted on the Coldplay forum. I find it hilarious how this one guy used to be pro-server, and pro-sharing (not a taper) but is now siding with the tapers and taking an active anti-server stance, although spending quite a bit of time on hubs and such. Too bad those old posts got deleted as they were so funny I almost cried. But I digress....

I'm glad I could amuse you. :eyebrow: Since that was an obvious slap at me I feel the need to respond. But I'd rather direct this to everyone here than just one person.

You know when people get into trading and collecting live shows for the first time everyone starts as a "freshman". They're often clueless on the the technology and especially about the entire taper arguments. I don't blame new people to the community for being pro-server and pro-sharing, its in their self-interest.

I'll admit I've gotten into arguments with other tapers on the CP msgboard before (distance in particular) and I shudder at those old posts myself as I was pretty uninformed in the beginning to the 'big picture'. But I've always been pro-trade NOT pro-leech and I've gotten VERY few of Coldplay collection from the Coldplay hub (maybe 5-10%) and most through snail-mail trades.

Once you start listening to the arguments given by tapers they are NOT unreasonable at all. They aren't anti-server, but they want only tapes that are authorized by the taper to be there. If they don't want their tapes to be sold, mp3'd, shn'd second-hand then they won't trade with the masses and only with other tapers. And you can't trade for rare uncirculated material with common circulated stuff. Its not rocket science.

So yes the arguments did stick with me as they did start making sense. But also the fact that I EXPERIENCED some of these issues myself caused me to change my views. I frankly got tired of some of the people off the Coldplay hub trading with me for the shows I got direct for the taper and second-hand shn'ing them among all the people there. They may have been free to circulate in trade but were never shn'd BY THE TAPER. It takes lots of work to track down tapers, to meet their trading needs, and to snail mail shows. Plus I get fed up after awhile of dealing with inexperienced traders too (getting gapped TAO discs, lack of source info, the occasional mp3 sourced).

But easily the thing that changed my mind the most was having friends with a circle of local tapers. Until you see what tapers have to put up with, you will never fully realize what they are talking about. Its a thankless job already but even worse when one person can "take" control of a show away from you in a heartbeat afterwards.

I think the Coldplay community (especially the ones who run the hub) have gotten the point. I've seen the changes they've made to have certain shows not be shared on the hub, to stop 2nd-hand shn'ing, and to get source info. They were inexperienced as well and had to make mistakes early on too. But as long as the experienced people stay and guide the community we will NOT make the same mistakes last tour. Hubs and torrents are great as a tool for getting liberated bootlegs or taped shows circulated by approving tapers but they should never be a crutch for the community

So that's why I'm pro-taper and pro-mail-trading in all the arguments I've made here. Because it makes sense, because it rewards 2 people equally, and because tapers do have lots to worry about from people who could care less. I do care about what happens to this community and how traders and collectors treat tapers. They are the ones with the greatest investments into this field and the ones who sacrifice the most.

And I'm not anti-server as I've gotten great shows off of STG and some of the hubs (mostly by bands I wouldn't normally trade for but still do like). I still get majority of my trades from snail mail (I spend 10-20 hours a week tracking down shows, burning, trading, updating lists, printing covers, and updating my website) and find it much easier to get a show I really want rather than cry and pout about it like some people do. After all once you get a good collection you will always find it easier to trade for rarer stuff because you will HAVE something someone else wants. But I do also realise that until I tape myself I will always limit the upper reaches of what i can get. I never expect to have everything I ever want nor do I deserve too.
 
Having been a mere spectator here for a bit, I feel compelled to speak up.

In response to Chrisedge's query about people who have taped not speaking out when they don't want their tapes torrented or hubbed or mass distributed, I've taped some U2 shows which haven't circulated since Al Gore invented the internet. For reasons noted by others here, and for other personal reasons, I don't want my tapes hosted or torrented or mass distributed.

To say that "99% of the shows that were hosted last tour were all ok by the taper" (quote by Chrisedge) is simply false. Pooka stated that his tapes were hubbed without his knowledge or consent; soulrock2 mentioned the Vienna taper not wanting his tape hubbed; someone mentioned the Kansas City taper. And offhand without trying hard I can think of a handful of other tapers, responsible for taping over a few dozen Elevation shows total, whose tapes were hubbed without them knowing. So the 99% number is incorrect. Just because more tapers haven't come out on this board and identified themselves doesn't mean that they're OK with their masters being hosted without their permission. Many people don't frequent these boards, some cherish anonymity, and some have gotten frustrated with the whole situation and retreated (along with their tapes).

A lot of people want to have it both ways. They torrent so they can appear heroes, yet they'll hang on to certain things when it serves them (chrisedge and u2rulesmyworld, how about RH Outtakes 5, and Dalton Brothers?). Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely NO problem with not trading something or trading it very carefully with only very trusted friends, it's the flipflopping and gameplaying that's rather amusing and revealing. (Why is it OK to torrent something that someone else might be trying to trade, in the same way you're working with RH5 and your other goodies? Trading is the best way to dig out things, that's a proven fact.) Another kicker is the folks who proclaim something "rare," try to get "rare" trades and then after an ordained date torrent it. People start catching on to that gig, and make notes of the players involved for future caution. Another grand kicker is the "liberated boot" one: once something shows up on Ebay it's OK torrent it; of course once a show is torrented it shows up on ebay en masse. Also, most downloaders aren't the same "customers" buying hand over fist on ebay.

A funny thing is I know a guy who would've traded something quite nice for Stockholm '92; now he's downloaded and needn't even think of trading. Soulrock is right, "Thanks to everyone involved! We know who you are."
 
Too many things to quote here, but RH Outtakes 5, was shared, KC wasn't hubbed. Night 2 of Vienna wasn't hubbed, (Lugi did night 1 and I don't think had any issues) Don't know what Pooka taped. It was the few IEM's that were shared that pissed off the "tapers". That is what everyone got upset about.

As far as other things I have, if they were given/traded to me with rules, I don't share them. I have many things I don't discuss on lists, or public forums because no need in making people that don't have them pissed. Do I share everything? No. But I can say, I have done more than most other people in getting things to the surface that many people enjoy. I'm sure the guys that got Stockholm could have held out and got "more" for their trade. Sometimes people just want to share though. Is there anything wrong with that?
 
Chrisedge, those shows have been/are available in the hubs. Not only Elevashn. Also in many other hubs.

@Daze, you can always buy the Stockholm master VHS if you want to make special trades. The persons who got that 1st gen copy just want to share it with the rest of the world. What's wrong with that?
 
daze said:
Trading is the best way to dig out things, that's a proven fact.

Actually, paying for things is the best way to dig things out. That's the fact. Irving Plaza, JTLA, Stockholm and many other things were lured out by cash.
 
You've been hanging out with u2rulesmyworld too much Chris. :eyebrow:

Money is something that MAY have to go out with when people DON'T care about trading to get at items, but its by no means the proper accepted channel. I find that the greatest barrier to not getting shows from other tapers is not sharing their set of ethics. :wink: Sitting on ebay is not the way to get great shows, just start listening to tapers and listen to "their needs". You'd have a much better shot then.

*throws up hands*:huh:
 
When your dealing with tapers, yes money is not the answer. But most of the best pro-shot type stuff doesn't come from tapers/traders. It comes from people willing to sell it to you. They could care less about getting something other than money.

BTW: I would never pay for anything. I never have, and never will. Unless it's an official release. (edited to add: well I bought some silver boots years ago)

I will stick to my methods. I have many things and have always respected what has been traded to me with rules.
 
It is a fact that certain things only circulate because someone bought/sold them (mainly certain proshot items, as Chrisedge points out). Sometimes a unique opportunity comes along, and the person realizes the only chance of ever getting a show is by exchanging some cash. This is a different kind of thing than the guy selling CDRs for $7.50 and justifying it by saying he needs to subsidize his equipment and the time he allegedly spends compiling reviews on his website.

Here's a good hypothetical: person A purchases a "rare" show for $1000, but gets it converted to DVD and to recoup his costs sells it to a few people for a few hundred dollars each. Person B claims to despise selling, but agrees to convert the "rare" show to DVD for person A. Is person B complicit in the selling (which he claims to despise) and acting as an accessory?
 
I smell dirty laundry being aired. For those who are still "new" to this community can you enlighten us with more

Sounds like some rare 87 pro shot videos were put to DVD, bought for $1000 each, then sold or given to a few individuals and it somehow leaked out. Were trust issues being broken here?

In fact can someone name individuals, so those who want to be more careful next time can avoid them completely like the plague?
 
Personally Im sort of glad I started this thread because it let me here some interesting views but now I think is the time for me to say something and if I get yelled at I do :/

I've been collecting since 2000/early 2001 the first show I ever got was a copy of Elevation Dallas 4/03/ from a guy who just made me a copy and sent it to me which he payed money for! I have since sent him a thank you package but it's because of people like this that got me started in trading.

The whole mess with the mp3s and the Elevation tour annoyed me as a trader because probably at least 12 of my shows I had to replace because it turns out that they were mp3 1 of em was a uncommon one *grumbles* and even now 1 of my recordings is supposidly mp3 but it only exists in mp3 and that's the second Denver show.

Now I hated the people who did that but truth be told up until recently I hated the rare trading circles and I loathe hoarders because some of the concerts I have been to do exist but because the person wants to keep it for themselves I never get to relive that moment. Although it may seem stupid to some people I started collecting because I wanted to have the shows I went to and it evolved from there but hoarding is something that I think is in the same category with selling a bootleg.....but that's me.

Anyway getting back to what I was saying if someone does have a wish that a show they taped shouldn't be shared then I think we should respect the tapers wishes and I learned that esp with the Coldplay community which I have 2 copies of the show I went to both the tapers asked not to be shared and I've respected there wishes but I guess it's a very hard situation but as much as I respect the tapers wishes I do believe in sharing the music.

Stockholm just got released because of Ebay,Joshua Tree LA was released because someone went ahead and let it get put out there and little things like this make rare things available to the people who really deserve to see them...........the fans!
Some of the things out there Id love to see and hear but I can't but with the new tour for those people that share your recordings for the fans as a fan I salute you!
 
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