how often do new U2 shows surface?

[Chrisedge]

.

One more comment, this is all kind of a dead issue. Most tapers are known, and if anyone objects, their recordings are removed from Stateless, and STG. I think the circulating shows for the next tour will mostly be hosted/torrented by the taper themselves

 

[Soulrock2]

Soulrock do you tape? Just curious. Also I never said the shows wont circulate (In fact I have said that there will be recordings of just about every show widely available if not every show). I just know some excellent ones may not because the tapers I know are excellent tapers and they are fed up with this mess. There certainly will be some great recordings available widely. I dont think anyone has disputed that? The percentage of great ones may decrease though. Honestly I think the leeching viewpoint makes me want to puke as much as the hoarding one does to alot of you.

I help a buddy, allthough it's his equipment (but mostly I'll buy the tickets lol).

Anyway, I said BOTH sides makes me wanna puke. One side has to respect tapers wishes, but the other side should stop bragging about those "A+++ Schoeps on a stand recordings" that are being hidden because of disrespecting tapers' rights. Why do I want to know that, as a trader who respects the rights but is a victim of other people's behaviour? I don't wanna know.

Bottom line: I respects tapers rights. That's why I've gotten some excellent stuff in the past. I do not respect people bragging about tapes that won't be available. And I don't like the fact that people are just assuming things not based on the facts.
The facts are that there have never ever been so many excellent recordings widely available of Radiohead, Pearl Jam (not only the new SBD), Nirvana, U2 etc. Thanks to generosity and technology.

 

[Blue Room]

I'm personally not worried about what "great" recordings are going to be hidden away. Most of the very best tapers are all pro-online sharing. The idiot IEM horders can hoard away, and I'll still get their recordings, like I did last time.

Now THAT is hilarious. LOL That statement shows me that you truly have no clue about what is going on or what is out there. So you are claiming to have all the IEM's now, or implying that you have most of them?? LOL I put it in quotes this time so their is no confusion on what you said. If thats not what you are saying then what the hell does this mean "IEM horders can hoard away, and I'll still get their recordings, like I did last time." ?????? Is this another broad statement that is an enormous stretch to try to prove your point get in some form of a dig?? I cant imagine that you would do that...............

I'am glad you are not worried about it. But if thats the case, why do these threads seem to bother you so much? Your torrenting crowd can rely on all your great tapers and you should be fine, right? So whats the big deal?

 

[Chrisedge]

Think back about the best recordings of the tour. Those tapes were all audience tapes and all those guys are pro-sharing. The few IEM's that didn't leak out are the ones that have issues. Yea, I know 90% of the tour was IEM'ed. What no one wants to say is 90% of them sound like shit and I would rather have a minidisc recording instead of that IEM tucked away in some hoarders closet.

I didn't paint some "Broad Statement". I never said I had every IEM. Shit, I don't have every show I'VE TAPED, transfered and listened to.

Bottom line, as yes these arguments get old. I've got enough, I'm sure I'll get plenty next tour too. (And so will everyone else)

To the original poster, look for people that share, and deal with those folks. No need to worry about "tapers not releasing their tapes", most of the time, these vaportapes, are unreleased for a reason, either the taper wants to get other things for it (it will be out at some point) or it isn't worth shit and they try to hold some power over folks with their precious tape.

 

[Blue Room]

Think back about the best recordings of the tour. Those tapes were all audience tapes and all those guys are pro-sharing. The few IEM's that didn't leak out are the ones that have issues. Yea, I know 90% of the tour was IEM'ed. What no one wants to say is 90% of them sound like shit and I would rather have a minidisc recording instead of that IEM tucked away in some hoarders closet.

I didn't paint some "Broad Statement". I never said I had every IEM. Shit, I don't have every show I'VE TAPED, transfered and listened to.

Bottom line, as yes these arguments get old. I've got enough, I'm sure I'll get plenty next tour too. (And so will everyone else)

To the original poster, look for people that share, and deal with those folks. No need to worry about "tapers not releasing their tapes", most of the time, these vaportapes, are unreleased for a reason, either the taper wants to get other things for it (it will be out at some point) or it isn't worth shit and they try to hold some power over folks with their precious tape.

LOL, I point to my last post again about not having a clue about it. This post cements it. But think whatever you want.

Anyway, I have had enough of this, its going nowhere. Good luck with your torrenting, but stick to your group of tapers. Then there wont be any problems. I dont know why that a difficult concept to grasp. There will be no problems if you do that.

 

[Chrisedge]

This is an issue with no winner/loser. Done. See you next tour.

 

[The Scientist]

Well there is no winner IF hubs and torrent sites like STG won't adapt to a taper-authorized or shn'd show list, at a minimum for the newer shows. People who are pro-sharing still won't concede this issue and so there will be this ongoing conflict until it changes. I know its scary that this MIGHT lower the amount of shows you get, but if you won't give up anything than you really can't ask for anything in return.

There are enough U2 tapers that most shows WILL surface on shn and hubs by tapers (except for some smaller cities where there are fewer tapers). But (and a big but) these will be generally shared by the first pro-share taper who releases them and that may be a low-end md tape or a moderate dat tape (most won't release a slightly better recording if theres another shared source in circulation). But in most cases the better tapes won't surface as they will be traded for equivalent tapes with other tapers (or traders who know how to treat these recordings).

As for IEM's its more than just hoarding for hoardings sake (even though that certain bunch can be very unfriendly in the way they deal with others) but also to do with that U2's mgmt will prosecute these tapers if more shows get released.

 

[martha]

*butts in*

What's IEM?

*butts out*

 

[U2girl]

Martha, IEM are (Internal Ear Monitors? not sure what the letters stand for) the little headphones with batteries you see the band use when they play live - basically it's a metronome (and I think in IEM the band also has their own music mix to hear what the others are playing) that helps them all to be in perfect timing.

Those shows have a characteristic clicking sound throughout the songs.

 

[martha]

Ok. I think I've seen those referred to as "earpiece" recordings now and again.
Thanks.

 

[huskies]

. . .if you won't give up anything than you really can't ask for anything in return.

This is a good way of putting it.

Chrisedge, the "you lose control once you distribute the show at all" argument is unconvincing. As someone else said before on this thread, why bite the hand that feeds? It is true that once you give the show to one person, unless you trust that person absolutely, you can't be sure what will happen. The problems begin with the third party torrenting. Without even trying, I can think of over a dozen Elevation tapes that were hubbed on the ElevaSHN hubs without the taper knowing (and I can probably think of more, if I took the time). At that time, not everyone even knew what SHN was, and there were more than a few surprised, and ultimately unhappy, tapers in the end. Will they share their tapes in the future? Some may, some may not.

I don't think it's correct or fair to equate anti-torrenting to anti-sharing.

Again, what is the problem with limiting hubs and torrents to taper-authorized shows, in the first place? There's a good chance that many, if not most or all, upcoming U2 shows will be taped by pro-torrent folks (especially if even a tiny fraction of the downloaders can find a way to pool resources and tape stuff). Why not be satisfied with hosting/torrenting THOSE shows, seeded by the taper?
--------------------

I think the circulating shows for the next tour will mostly be hosted/torrented by the taper themselves

I hope you are right that ALL the torrented shows will be hosted/torrented by the tapers themselves.

I also hope that STG and stateless and whatever ELevaSHN hubs around at the time will be pro-active about ONLY hosting taper-seeded shows. This would be a significant step in improving the community, for everyone. In the long run, the torrent freaks will be better off in a system that shuns third party torrenting/hosting, and there will ultimately be more shows available (maybe it will take more time and effort to get them, but at least they will be there).

 

[U2girl]

Yep, earpiece is another name for it.

 

[U2Lynne]

There is no way that STG can make sure that only the tapers are torrenting their own shows. It just isn't set up that way. There is a Report this post to a moderator button on the posts and we encourage posters to use that if they think something is wrong. So, if you think something shouldn't be torrented and you have a valid reason for it to be pulled, hit that button and report the show giving a valid reason. I, myself, will probably be keeping a good watch on all the U2 shows that go up and I'm more that willing to keep a private list of taper names to watch out for (or just their equipment set-up) and pull the shows if they show up on STG.

 

[ryanu23]

A qualifying remark: I tape. That being said, I can't help, but find all this a little ironic that (strictly speaking) 'rule-breakers' are getting all bent out of shape about their own 'rules' being disrespected. I'll respect any rules a taper lays down to keep them happy, but I don't subscribe to the philosopy that it's my moral obligation. Tapers, by the definition of their actions (with the exception of taping 'Taper-friendly bands) choose to disregard the 'rules' set down by the bands they (we) tape. It's all very amusing to me. It's not YOUR 'product'; sure you may have paid to 'capture' it, but the creation, and hence, any right (if there exists any in the first place to outline 'moral' definitions) is that of the artists. Again, I will abide by any rules set out by the taper, because I feel the end (more tapes) justifies the means (following an inherently flawed moralistic argument).

 

[the white flag]

ahh, and it's lovely how you couch yourself in some moral high ground argument even as you accuse ohters of being moralistic.

the bottom line is that the tpaer owns the tape. of course without the band there'd be no music to capture on the tape, but the taper owns the tape. (oh, and you forgot to bring out the old copyright argument). people like you are the reason more and more tapers choose not to distribute their tapes at all.

blue room is right, most people really have no clue.

upping shows to torrents or servers makes the upper/torrenter a hero to the oodles of downloaders.

ryanu23, it's graet that you tape, if you're into torrents you are free to torrent your own master tapes. the issues arise when someone torrents someone's else's tpae (the third party torrenting) without permission. maybe you don't see it as a problem as there are tons of shows out there, but thanks to the third party torrenting there's tons of stuff not out there.

 

[ryanu23]

White flag,
I don't know if your first few paragraphs were directed to me, but if they were: My whole point is that there is no moral high ground here, where we live (tapers and the taper community), "in the dust bin of history."
The taper owns the physical tape you are correct, but we are not talking about someone breaking into their house and pilfering all their masters. If you use the argument that the 'captured' audio is 'owned' by the taper than I say bullshit...if this digital capture/artistic creation is owned by anyone (I don't personally believe it is) than it is the artist.

I'll say it again...I'll respect the tapers wishes/rules in order to support the proliferation of more tapes, but to say it is a moral imperative is a joke. If that makes me "bad" in a taper's eyes (because I follow their 'directions' for reasons other than agreeing with their motives or reasons) then I don't know what to say....oh well.

I respect all that tapers contribute to the community and the music they share. But...you want me to feel like the taper has been wronged and to me it's simply a case of:

"stealing from the thieves and you got caught"

I'm not happy about it, but I can't blame anyone.

 

[steak]

My 2c

I don't tape, i want to make that point clear, not because i have anything against it, not because i think it's wrong but because I've never been to a concert, let along a u2 concert, and if i did i wouldn't want to waste it hitting record buttons. Don't try and change my mind. Most of my bootlegs are recordings of shows that I have have been recorded pro in some way or another. Dancing ZOOTV is a great example of this.

And yes i think tapers are being selfish and a little elitist in a way. The argument that mp3 is bad quality is the silliest argument you can possibly use if you ask me. We are talking about MONO recordings that are so full of drunken crowd noise that they are (a lot of the time) almost unlistenable. And these audiophiles are complaining that they mp3s are too low bitrate...that's nuts. I can't tell the difference between an mp3 and shn recording on a cd rip so anyone who says they can on a bootleg is, if you ask me, probably using a little wishful thinking.

And that argument that they want to keep the postal trading thing alive is also rather silly, amazingly things in this world progress, you might have noticed the Internet springing up over the last few years and with it email, as a result the postal system as a means of communication is dying a slow death. All i get in the mail these days is junk and bills. So as you can imagine this trading thing that goes on in the mail is dying to. Hanging onto it in my view is akin to trying to revive the old BBS ways instead of using newer Internet forums, your just trying to ignore progress and insist that the old ways are best and everything new is wrong. Progress is happening people and we have to welcome it with open arms.

 

[*Wolverine*]

WOW, is this thread a bunch of garbage!!!! I really need to check this place out more often. SOME of you have absolutely no clue!!!!

Like others on this thread have said or eluded to, if you dont tape, you have no business even commenting on what a taper should do with it. I dont understand this last post at all. I dont tape, only collect pro bootlegs but tapers are selfish and I feel the need to post my BS about it???? Man, why even comment on something you are not a part of in anyway and obviously have no idea about and if you dont participate in it, why do you care?! Just idiotic.

What if tapers are elitist??? What are you going to do about it? Piss and moan about how selfish they are and how they need to share all here? How about getting off your ass and doing it yourself?? Share your garbage and then you can have a legitimate gripe with others. Dont give me the I dont have the time and money crap either. That has also been dispelled by others on this thread. If your legitimately dont have the time and money (which is BS for 95% of you here), then just be happy you can get anything and stop bitching about how you cant get it all, right now, the way you want it!!! I will concede that I'am a proud hoarding elitist, but its some idiots that displayed themselves on this thread that make it easy to be that way. At least I can admit it, you need to look in the mirror as well because alot of you are whining spoiled internet brats!

Scientist, white flag, huskies, blue room and probebly a few others I'am forgetting you ARE right. But dont waste your time trying to convince some of these idiots. They will never agree, even if you are right and bombard them with facts and logic. Someone else pointed out that everytime they made a point it was simply ignored by the server idiots. So what does that tell you.

ChrisEdge and Ryanu23, you tape, so you know what is involved and I think you can understand why some dont like the server crap. ChrisEdge I know who you are and who you deal with, you can keep a few of those people! But I respect that you are a taper, unfortunately thats about the only part that I agree with. I think you do agree though that a tapers trading requirements should be respected even if you dont agree with them. Ryanu23, what type of rig do you use? What shows have you recorded that we would all know? I'am assuming they are downloadable on a server somewhere considering what you said. Please share this info with us.

****TAPERS out there who dont want to deal with servers next year************ For those of you that are not aware, the plan next year is to only trade masters on DAT (no CDR or MD trades). ONLY trade with someone you know is a taper and only trade on DAT tape. This should eliminate alot of the problems with the wrong people getting their hands on stuff.

OK, once again, FIRE AWAY!!

Back to hoarding I go!

 

[steak]

Hey, bite me.

This is a forums i am entitled to my opinion and i am entitled to post it, I was trying to put forward my view in an orderly manner but fuck ya, your last paragraph just goes to show that you are an elitist pig dog who has no concept of the word sharing. What's the matter? Did mommy make you share your lollies when you were young and now your making up for it?

I have only pro shows because they are the best quality and believe it or not i'm actually in it for the music and not the warm fuzzy, slightly erotic feeling you must get knowing you are the only one that has a terrible quality recording of a show that is only slightly different from some of the many kick-ass pro recordings that are freely available on-line to anyone who wants them, keep your shitty recordings all to yourself, wipe up after yourself with them, then listen over and over again to the drunk hooligan who ruins the climax solo to Until the End of the World by screaming "BONO I LOVE YOU" at the top of his lungs.

The sound sucks, but only you know it sucks so who cares...keep listening to your ultra rare one of a kind show!

Watch me, i'm drooling...

 

[Chrisedge]

I wasn't gonna post in here again but this is something I typed up. I am not addressing any comments made after my last post, that are inaccurate, but this overall feeling on this subject is summed up in this doc.

Pick a side?

May 24, 2004
This is a long document, it might have some errors, and I know it's rambling, but I typed it out as my thoughts came to me. It's not complete, but I wanted a doc that sums up most of my thoughts.

I am a taper. I don't own the most expensive mics, but I have made some decent recordings that are the best known source of several shows. I originally didn't like people converting to MP3, or remastering my shows, selling it, etc... I have gone off on folks that have done that in the past, but came to realize that if you share your recording, folks will do with it what they please. Right or wrong, it's the way it is. Someone will do something you don't like with the recording. Whether it is sold on eBay (the worst thing in my mind) or convert it to MP3, the thing I've come to realize is, once traded out, it's out of your hands.

Tapers do not own there tapes, if they let it out in anyway, they can no longer control it. If you want absolute control, do not let it out, or only trade to trusted friends who will not let it out past that.

If "rules" are spread with the recording, (in a text file, or directly from the taper) we should follow them. I have no issue with following what the taper asks. If no rules are given to me, from who I get the recording from, how can I determine who/what rules to follow? How can we know what a taper wished if he didn't include it in the text files or makes himself known? Many tapers wish to remain anonymous, so if, as a taper you wish to remain anonymous, and you trade out your shows as audio cd's only (no text file) it makes it difficult to know what YOU as the taper wanted (not someone wishing to keep your recording out of everyone else's hands). If no rules were included with the recording, who is to determine what is the "correct" way to trade said recording? Why is some ways of trading the "allowed" way and others as the "not allowed" way? What's funny if you do a search on Yahoo of "no public ftp server access", guess what band comes up as the "anti-server" band? * See comments below. Those comments accounts for less than half a dozen shows and I have no problem with TAPERS that put those comments in their text files, and share there shows via snail mail. Good for them, to let them out, and let it be known what they want. But remember, unless you recorded it and let it be known how YOU want it shared, no one else has a right to say how it should be shared. Just because you don't like things a certain way, doesn't mean you should impose your views on everyone else.

This cracks me up as an example of some people trying to control what is not theirs:

1985-03-23
Detroit, MI.
Joe Louis Arena
Complete Show: Yes
Disc 1: (41:57)
Disc 2: (42:55)

*************DO NOT ENCODE TO MP3!**************
**********no public ftp server access***********
******only to be traded on a 1 for 1 basis******

History: WM-D6 master > Teac mic > DAT > CDR2 > SHN
Shn'd from CDR Copy by J. Pinto on 04.01.02

+++++ CUT OFF REST.

WM-D6 master > Teac mic > DAT > CDR2 > SHN means, the DAT got put on a CDR, then most likely traded to someone. So the taper put it on a CDR, then either copied it, or traded that CDR to someone, and then another copy was made, (Possibly traded again) and then SHN'd up. The taper would have no reason to make a second gen CDR copy then SHN it, so why should J. Pinto impose rules on us, when he is clearly not the taper? He might not even know the taper as he is 2 gens away. Here is another example of his rules:

U2: Cleveland, OH. Gund Arena. May 3, 2001.

------------------------------------------------
*************DO NOT ENCODE TO MP3!**************
**********no public ftp server access***********
******only to be traded on a 1 for 1 basis******
------------------------------------------------

Complete Show: Yes
Disc 1: (60:34)
Disc 2: (64:23)
Source: unknown ALD, audience

Shn'd from CDR Copy by J. Pinto on 23.10.01
CDR>EAC(secure)>WAV>MKW>SHN

+++++ CUT OFF REST.

This time he doesn't even know the history of the 2 source mix he is putting rules on. He EAC'd a CDR copy, and put some text rules in the file.

Last example:

Tour: Elevation
Date: 2001-08-08
Venue: Barcelona, Spain - Palau Sant Jordi
Name of Show: N/A
Taper: Javi Dieguez
Recording Location/Equipment:
Sec 124, Row 16, Seat 5 > OKMIIr > A3 > PCM-M1 > DAT master 44.1KHz

SHN Process:
DAT master > DTC-ZE700 > optical > ZA2 > CEpro+CDWave+MkwACT > SHN > CD-R (clone) > EAC > wav > mkw 0.96f > SHN

------------------------------------------------
*************DO NOT ENCODE TO MP3!**************
**********no public ftp server access***********
******only to be traded on a 1 for 1 basis******
------------------------------------------------

+++++ CUT OFF REST.

First off, I don't ever remember Javi having a issue with people hosting his recordings. But someone who got a Audio CD made from a SHN copy, then re-shn'd it (a no-no, when there is already a SHN circulating) and added the above comments. No wonder most folks don't care, it when the non-tapers try to impose their rules on folks, most people get bitter or sour at the idea of certain people trying to limit how they can trade.

Javi, or J Pinto, if you have anything to say, please email me at chrisedge@yahoo.com

Most of us agree that the worst thing possible is when you see your recording for sale on eBay. Many people blame the rapid explosion of the P2P, FTP, Bit Torrent as the cause of all these shows for sale. Let me make this clear. Everything gets sold. Long before DVD's were shared over broadband, they were being sold over eBay and other places. Before you could download complete shows on CD, they were being produced by foreign companies (often hiring tapers to record the show to be sold) manufacturing silver CDs. The internet/broadband/etc.hasn't been the cause of people selling recordings; they have been doing it for years, before anyone downloaded anything. All that is changed is more people can get access to the shows (whether meeting folks over the internet, then snail mailing, or just downloading), then decide to sell it. The internet has also given us more access to places to sell, eBay, websites, paypal all help sellers with their goal of making a few bucks at the expense of the band, the tapers, and those foolish enough to buy the boots.

What the internet has helped is the networking of thousands of fans of different bands that are able to meet each other. There is nothing like meeting up with someone you have shared email with, or developing bonds with folks who share your love of the same music. I have met (some in person, some over email) some truly special folks who just want to share their love of certain bands and spend lots of time to help others with their hobbies of collecting live music. What?s great is some of my friends, don?t even trade with me anymore, we just send each other great discs and don?t worry about what each other ?owes? each other.

"The Instant Access, I Want It Now" Complaint. I agree with this one, across all boards and traders. I find it funny that some folks accuse downloaders as the culprits of this. It used to be a "3 week rule". You can't ask for a show until 3 weeks after the show was over. Now I see folks before the show has even happened asking about anyone that plans on taping it. Note this is snail mail traders, downloaders, everyone. We have come to expect most shows getting taped, and people aren't afraid to ask for what they want. Do I need every show of a particular show of a tour? Nope, Do I need last nights show today? Nope. But as a collector, I usually decide on what I want, and will try and get them. Now if I was at last nights show, I might want that a bit quicker, or if someone got a great sounding show and it is a really good recording, I might want that a bit faster but most folks want what they want a little too quickly. It's part of our "MTV" generation. That goes for all traders, no matter how you trade.

I've got no issues with people that want to keep their stuff rare. Gets them access to other rare stuff, and allows them to "fish out" other stuff that might be hiding under the radar. Heck, I've got stuff that I know other people would really like to see, and I've taped quite a few shows that I have not transferred yet (not really hording, but laziness). My problem is when people are "proud" to be hoarders or they post in public forums about what great stuff they have, but are only looking for other "rare" stuff. I usually think of that as elitism, or flame-bait, or just plain bragging. Most of us that have been doing this a while, have our connections for the stuff that is not on everyone's list. We know who can get us other rare stuff and posting on a open forum is not usually the place to do it. It just shows everyone which side of the fence you sit on. Pro-Downloading / Anti-Downloading.

Most folks have picked their side by now. Either you?re into snail mail or you?re into downloading (and with downloading, some like to upload ). Why must the snail mailers try and impose their thoughts and rules on the downloaders? (It's never the other way around) I did a pretty big trade last U2 tour when I got something "rare" that I wasn't going to host via downloading. I took about 20 plus trades via snail mail and still got shit about it, because I was spreading a show too rapidly. WTF? I guess I should sit on everything and take only 1 trade a week/month/year to please some folks. Why is it that the folks in the snail mail camp think they have the right to say how I should trade something? I don't have a problem if it's the known taper or even if it's traded to me with rules, but if I get something in a regular old fashion snail mail trade is it my responsibility to track down the taper, and see if it's ok to trade? Or Host? Or Giveaway? Remember, the taper let it out and no longer controls it.

Many snail mailers bring up the fact that "Tapers have already begun not releasing shows because of the servers". Tapers have horded their own shows long before FTP/Servers/Downloading and will continue to hoard shows. On Scott Zumsteg's great website, he even mentions Led Zeppelin tapers doing this back in the 1970's, releasing partial tapes (we haven't seen that before, have we?) and then hoarding the complete tape for better trade bait. Some tapers will release their shows, some won't. It has happened for years and will continue to happen. Please don't use that excuse as a reason why downloading shouldn?t happen. Some people want to keep things within their control and keep that recording from surfacing. It's the same as it has been for years, and will always be an issue, downloading or not. If a recording plays in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it exist?

-Chrisedge

 

[The Scientist]

Well ChrisEdge i read what you put and agree with a large amount of it, but most are observations of how things already work.

It sounds like you agree with with "hoarding", as you said don't release it if you don't want it mass shared, mp3'd, and sold. That's what most of the "hoarders" are arguing. As long as people ignore the requests of tapers then tapers may ignore the wants of people who do nothing to contribute to the process. They won't share their shows with the mass public (but they will trade among people who share their views).

As long as a few people ignore the standard operating rules (by requesting shows before the 3 week rule, third party mp3'ing and shn'ing, selling shows, and ignoring taper requests) then this will be part of the reaction. You are right that many tapers will (and possibly should) just shrug and say its out of my hands what happens to their tape. On the other hand others will be proactive and trade amongst only their peers.

I understand that when you say "Who is to say what an anonymous taper wants?" but on the other hand and if you don't know who a taper is DON'T ALTER THEIR TAPE if you find a copy. Keep it on that audio cd! If you got it in a snail mail trade with no known restrictions than feel free to snail trade it further, but don't shn it. If its on a shn don't make it an mp3. Its pretty easy to grasp.

 

[The Scientist]

Frankly what would MAKE it easier is if the community could be proactive by putting up all the dates of an upcoming tour and then tapers could post if they did tape a particular show, what equiptment they used, whether they want to remain anonymous (or have contact info for trades), and then what permissions they have for that show (DAT trade only, rare trades only, no shn-no mp3 but snail mail ok, shn'd by the taper but only for hub-share-not torrent, shn'd BY the taper but no mp3, shn'd and mp3'd BY the taper, shared on mp3 only, or vinyl only ) If the taper's requests could go out BEFORE it gets touched or traded and if everyone used a central website for info then this would clear up a lot of the problems. Then if it got shn'd or shared it would be much easier to nail the people who ignored their rules which were clearly posted weeks before it started trading. After all the requests would be on a widely known site viewable by all.

But the U2 community would have to jointly use a system, and it would have to be widely adopted. It wouldn't work as a msgboard either as that would create the negative atmosphere by flaming responses to non-shared copies. Just a simple website with dates/ equiptment / taper info (or anonymous)/ and sharing info (along with notes if part of songs were missed)

I don't know if the U2 community can share a single resource (among tapers, traders, and fans) and actually enfore the guidelines. Mp3'ers and sellers won't be part of this process as they ignore any given rule it seems. I'd still urge people who don't want mp3'ing or selling to not share with the masses if they don't want to take the risk. And whoever would be in charge of a site would have to be respected and trusted with this info and to keep it up-to date. But this could head off third party shn'ing, stop the early requests (as it would TELL people that a show exists and whether they should plan to come across it), and keep source info with more recordings. Plus it could always be used to point out and say "see no shn'd version should exist, pull it off this hub or torrent"!

Stupid idea or worth discussing further?

 

[Chrisedge]

Let's get down to the real issue. The problem was with the IEM/ALD's. I know of no audience taper that had an issue with posting his shows online***. (Maybe Blue Room remembers if there were any). STG doesn't host IEM's so right there the problem mostly solved. I bet when we talk about tapers not releasing their tapes we are saying the IEMers won't release them. They usually leak them out through their friends and one of those releases them. I have "sat" on some better ALD/IEM's and didn't spread those that were traded to me with "rules" and sometimes even with no rules, just out of respect for the person that traded with me, in order for them to get more out of them.

Bottom line, it's about hoarding the IEM's.

(***Added: I think the guy that taped St Louis, 11/28/2001 didn't want his show hosted. Because that was the only show where they did When I Look At The World)

 

[Blue Room]

Good Lord, why is this thread being resurrected. Drop it already. I wasnt going to respond again but since ChrisEdge had to point to me I will.

Read my prior posts, you will see most tapers didnt realize what kind of problems would result when the Elevation tour was going on. So there were not many restrictions at first. What I'am saying is NOW and for the upcoming tour alot of tapers dont like what happened and dont want to be involved with the server part of it. Also, just because YOU know of no tapers doesnt mean they dont exist. You seem to post like if you dont know about it, it cant be true. I dont think you think that (at least I hope not) but your posts seem to come from that perspective.

THe IEM/ALD part of it is just ridiculous as well. I sense some hostility on that level. Thats fine, but dont let it skew your judgement or cause you to make blanket statements like that. Just so you are aware there are at least 3 other tapers who have posted on this thread who do not like servers and they are audience tapers.

The Scientist summed it up perfectly and your response to that is to place the blame on IEMs? If someone says something logical it just seems to get brushed right over if you dont agree. Like you said to me, even though we disagree on alot, I expect better than that. Come on!

Also, When I Look At The World was done at Kansas City, not St. Louis. So your theory on that is incorrect also.

I have heard through the grapevine that U2 are considering official boots. I really hope it happens so all this BS is over. Otherwise next year is going to be a huge mess on both sides. Neither side is obviously going to convince the other on this. What I do find funny though is that the pro server argument comes mainly from people who dont tape. Funny how that works.

 

[Chrisedge]

What I'am saying is NOW and for the upcoming tour alot of tapers dont like what happened and dont want to be involved with the server part of it.

Can you ever name names? The Wangs, Browns, Coluzzis all support servers. Zumsteg doesn't. Give me some names of audience tapers who don't support servers.

Also, just because YOU know of no tapers doesnt mean they dont exist. You seem to post like if you dont know about it, it cant be true.

I don't know every taper. But you keep mentioning some that don't like it. Give me a name. It can be someone who taped on the last tour, who doesn't "approve" of hosting his shows. We can make sure we don't host their shows. You'd be doing them a favor.

THe IEM/ALD part of it is just ridiculous as well. I sense some hostility on that level.

First off, they are the loudest about bitching, so it's not ridiculous. They also (understandable, don't want their names on the shows, so I'm ok with not having those hosted or torrented) But I am hostile when they bitch that I did trades for a particular show.

Just so you are aware there are at least 3 other tapers who have posted on this thread who do not like servers and they are audience tapers.

Speak up. What shows have they done, and I will make sure to not shows hosted by them. No problems or hard feelings. None have said "I'm a taper, and I don't want my show hosted"

The Scientist summed it up perfectly and your response to that is to place the blame on IEMs?

He did respond in a sensible fashion and I have no problems with his views. IEM's were the biggest complaint last tour, and that is where I focused on. Can you name a single show audience show that the taper didn't want hosted, that was hosted?

Also, When I Look At The World was done at Kansas City, not St. Louis. So your theory on that is incorrect also.

It's not a fucking theory, I remember him about that show (KC) that he didn't want it hosted, so it wasn't. The taper asked and everyone was cool with it. Must you be so dramatic?

What I do find funny though is that the pro server argument comes mainly from people who dont tape.

Nice try. (JUST SO YOUR CLEAR THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION) Most tapers are ok doing the online thing. (at least they aren't against) You and tapers that think that way are in the minority. Get on STG, or Datheads, or Archive.org. Plenty of tapers are cool with online sharing. It a few that are causing all the shit.

 

[Soulrock2]

Funny how all you people think that only a minority ruins it for all. There are lotsa people who don't give a shit and they will never ever read or join this debate. Think about all the DC hubs devoted to trading/sharing. The elevaSHN hub is just one of many hubs. If elevaSHN people obey the rules, still plenty of other hubs exists where there will be 3rd party shn'ing, mp3's etc.

It will always be a problem. Make this topic a sticky and maybe a tiny percent of all traders/collecters will read about this. Does the majority care? I doubt it...

BTW. Compromise; not a dirty word!

 

[Blue Room]

LOL, alright this is the last time I'am posting on this regardless of what is posted or who says it.

ChrisEdge, look at the ridiculousness of some of the things you are saying. Name names, well, just like you say about the IEM people the same can be said about some tapers. They dont want to have their names all over everyones message board. They dont have that kind of ego or need to be labeled as a taper and/or have personal reasons for not being public about it. There are three others here that are, I think with your deductive reasoning you can figure out who the posters are. There is a reason you dont know who they are, because they dont like dealing with servers!! Of course you know the pro server tapers!! Jesus. I dont claim to know who all the pro server tapers are myself either because I generally dont deal with them. I certainly dont deny they exist though. Apply this theory and see if you can deduce what I'am saying since I cant seem to get my point accross to you as to why (GASP) ChrisEdge doesnt know who the tapers are that dont like servers. I love your post on ElevaSHN. Gee, what response do you think you are going to get from a server group as to where they stand?? LOL

Its obvious you dont believe me, thats fine. But I'am coming to the conclusion and I think others are as well that if a taper request no encoding next tour you and other server people will ignore it and say. How do I know you are the taper argument. So where does that leave it. Unfortunately tapers only trading with like minded tapers. So thats probebly how it will go. Thats why I said previously, get your own group that you KNOW are pro servers, then you can have every show covered and there is no problem. But for some reason, this is a problem and I dont know why. Could it be because there really arent that many that really do want everything they do uploaded? If you have enough, then what is the problem?

I dont understand the St. Louis thing. You said the St. Louis show wasnt shared probebly because the taper wanted it rare because When I Look At The World was done. It wasnt done at St. Louis. It was done at KC and I know who that taper is. So what part of that theory were you correct on? Did you name the wrong show in your original post?

Anyway, that is it for me on this subject I'am sick of even looking at the posts on it. Think what you like. Do what you like. Its the internet way anyway. No accountability at all. You server people may be ok, I think there will be recordings of every show next year regardless like I said before. I guess my only hope there is that SHN is the prevelant method and not MP3, at least lossless garbage isnt spread then. But I "think" you may see a drop in the number of DAT sourced shows available. That may not bother you, and thats fine. Personally those are the recordings I want. So I will stick to non server trading, its my preference and I know alot of tapers feel the same way. Unfortunately it creates exclusive groups and thats to bad. Because despite what alot of people keep labeling them as and despite what Wolverine says (no offense Wolverine), most tapers are not hoarding elitists just because they dont like servers.


PS: one other thing you said. You said on the bit torrents IEMs and ALDs are not allowed. Fair enough, sounds good. But what about ElevaSHN. Are you guys going to follow the same rule?

 

[Chrisedge]

#1 (St Louis Thing) , Yea I got the date wrong. I think the guys name was Alex (not Coluzzi) something. He let it be known that he didn't want it on a server. No problem.

#2 (Less DAT's circulating) Yea, this might be a problem but it is more just because more people are taping with MiniDisc and NJB3's than before. I don't think Sony even makes DAT's anymore. (could be wrong on that)

#3 I posted in ElevaSHN because someone who always posts "anti-server" stuff in a server community is an idiot and a flamer. They should be kicked out, but we don't do it because we don't want to have to.

#4 I hope we don't host unapproved recordings. That has yet to be discussed, and I am just one voice. Keep in mind that everywhere else will host anything however, so I'm sure your thoughts on servers won't change. STG has over 150,000 people registered and usually 600-700 online at a time. (Just on the boards, not downloading which must be much higher)

 

[Chrisedge]

After Four Rounds, here is the score card.

huskies (AntiServer)
ultraviolet_j (AntiServer)
Blue Room (AntiServer)
The Scientist (AntiServer)
the white flag (AntiServer)
*Wolverine* (AntiServer)

(Can you figure out which 3? are tapers? Who is the MOLE?)

Chrisedge (Admited Taper / ProServer)
ryanu23 (Admited Taper / ProServer)
U2Lynne (ProServer)
Axver (ProServer)
steak (ProServer)

Soulrock2 (ProServer?, "Compromise")

U2girl (?)
DaveC (Newbie)
martha (Newbie)
bloodysunday972 (Original Poster)

 

[martha]

After Four Rounds, here is the score card.
martha (Newbie)

should read: (innocent bystander who is fascinated by this and who owns a few boots and who doesn't know shit about taping)