The Evolution of U2's Creative Process

[Gzusfrk]

So with SOE now released, we have been getting bits of info on "how" this album was made. It made me think back over the decades about how U2 has written songs, made records and how that has changed, or in some ways stayed the same .

I've been a fan since TUF and have tried to keep up pretty well with the band and such, but I'm sure there are others here with a lot more insight.

The first window into their creative process that I remember was the "Making of The Unforgettable Fire" documentary. At the time, it seemed as though Eno/Lanois were producers in the traditional sense, not necessarily "co-collaborators", but again, others may know more of the inside scoop!

The first "aha" moment for me was Eno getting co-writing credit on Luminous Times, but again, I don't know how involved Brian and Danny were in the actual creation of the songs on the album.

I remember R&H being the first time that Bono mentioned his obsession with being able to play U2 songs on an acoustic guitar, an obsession that's never left, for good or bad!!

Again, in my opinion, the 90's were U2's creative peak, AB through Pop, but then the creative process seems to get cloudy. Eno upset about songwriting credits on ATYCLB, the "collaboration" on NLOTH, then we come to the current period.

I admit, as much as I love Summer of Love, it's nagging me a bit that Ryan Tedder/One Republic MAY have written huge portions of the song, but without songwriting credit. It nagged me a little that he wrote the chorus melody of EBW, not because of the quality, I love it, but no songwriting credit.

I know lines are blurred often with producers/writers/co-creators etc, but to ME, this may be a transparency issue for U2. Are they seeking relevance and the "fountain of youth" so badly that they will pay other songwriters to NOT get a co-writing credit, and pretend it's their own work??

I love Brian Wilson, and am glad he has still been making good records over the last 30 years, but sometimes it's had to determine how much of it is Brian, really, and how much is it his collaborators doing Brian Wilson imitations??

Is it like when Aerosmith started writing with Desmond Child and Diane Warren?? Anyone and Glen Ballard??? Where the "future is drying up", so lets keep the band/artist on life support as long as we can , under the "illusion" that they "still have it"??

Again, I am asking those who know more about these things to please chime in?? I don't know what I think right now. It won't stop me from enjoying SOE, but it may help us understand where the band is REALLY at creatively after 40 years.

Thoughts??

 

[BVS]

Are they seeking relevance and the "fountain of youth" so badly that they will pay other songwriters to NOT get a co-writing credit, and pretend it's their own work??

Are we seeking relevance so badly that we’re willing to spin and make up our own alternative facts?

 

[BVS]

Bono and Edge talking about wanting to write songs they can play on an acoustic goes back further to at least the conspiracy of hope days. They recalled a moment being in a room full of musicians/ contemporaries and people sharing what they’re working on and them being embarrassed they couldn’t pick up a guitar and do the same.

 

[Gzusfrk]

Are we seeking relevance so badly that we’re willing to spin and make up our own alternative facts?

Ok, Tedder just gave a chorus to EBW without any compensation. I guess we don't know for sure, but we've been round this bend before, he wrote the chorus, not saying the lyrics, but writing the "chorus melody" is pretty significant for that song, IMO, whether you want to believe it or not.

That is NOT an "alternative fact."

 

[trevgreg]

A few things I’ve learned from being a music fan over the years and writing some stuff in general…

• Unless you’re in a room with somebody, or especially a band, it’s extremely hard to figure out who wrote or contributed what to the exact minutue detail. There’s book and websites devoted to figuring out whether Lennon or McCartney did this or that on the Beatles songs they wrote together (or, in many cases, wrote on their own). We’re kind of lucky in that this band is big enough to do plenty of interviews and such and give some insight into the process. But unless we’re in the room with them, it’s really all just speculation anyway.
• Writing credits are a weird thing to start with and can’t really be an exact basis for who contributed what. Tedder didn’t credited for contributing the chorus melody line to Every Breaking Wave, but I’ve also heard a story about a record producer getting a writing credit on a song for merely humming how a solo should go. What about all the U2 producers that might’ve come up with something during the previous 40 years or so? Bands hardly ever do every single thing or idea entirely on their own anyway…
• If we have to “cancel” out Summer of Love because a young producer may have written parts of it, do we also cancel out Do You Feel Loved because it contains a significant sample of another song that didn’t get a writing credit? Or is it somehow safe because they were in their 30’s when they wrote it and because it was during the 90’s halcyon days some of us hold them up to be?? Do we cancel out a lot of ATYCLB because of the claims by Eno (and Lanois?) that they co-wrote significant portions of it? Do we suddenly not like NLOTH for similar reasons?
• At the end of the day, it's not a situation like Blondie's where they basically outsourced 2 or 3 tracks from their recent album to outside producers, then have Chris Stein standing in the background as they perform the lead single off it live on The Tonight Show while the "new" guitarist plays all the important parts. That's not to say I don't like the singles off that album. But in terms of hipster street cred among the fan base, maybe people will look at that and think "How dare they!"

By all accounts, this band still does the writing and then has guys help them in the process. Whatever the extent of that is, it might not differ a whole lot from what it was before. The Haim thing already shows that people can like a song despite at least some of it coming from another source. Unless, of course, Haim and Tedder are the equivalent of cooties in someone's eyes because they're young and not one of the four guys...

 

[BVS]

Ok, Tedder just gave a chorus to EBW without any compensation. I guess we don't know for sure, but we've been round this bend before, he wrote the chorus, not saying the lyrics, but writing the "chorus melody" is pretty significant for that song, IMO, whether you want to believe it or not.

That is NOT an "alternative fact."

What?! Believe it or not, what are you talking about?

I understand he came up with the chorus melody, I’m just not sure that warrants writing credits. I’m sure there are several producers when working with bands like U2 who create in the studio that recommend melody ideas.

And I’m sure he got paid since he was a producer, but the whole U2 paid them off to be quiet is the shit trolls do in order to get people to start spreading that idea around.

Let’s find out the story first, shall we?

 

[Gzusfrk]

A few things I’ve learned from being a music fan over the years and writing some stuff in general…

• Unless you’re in a room with somebody, or especially a band, it’s extremely hard to figure out who wrote or contributed what to the exact minutue detail. There’s book and websites devoted to figuring out whether Lennon or McCartney did this or that on the Beatles songs they wrote together (or, in many cases, wrote on their own). We’re kind of lucky in that this band is big enough to do plenty of interviews and such and give some insight into the process. But unless we’re in the room with them, it’s really all just speculation anyway.
• Writing credits are a weird thing to start with and can’t really be an exact basis for who contributed what. Tedder didn’t credited for contributing the chorus melody line to Every Breaking Wave, but I’ve also heard a story about a record producer getting a writing credit on a song for merely humming how a solo should go. What about all the U2 producers that might’ve come up with something during the previous 40 years or so? Bands hardly ever do every single thing or idea entirely on their own anyway…
• If we have to “cancel” out Summer of Love because a young producer may have written parts of it, do we also cancel out Do You Feel Loved because it contains a significant sample of another song that didn’t get a writing credit? Or is it somehow safe because they were in their 30’s when they wrote it and because it was during the 90’s halcyon days some of us hold them up to be?? Do we cancel out a lot of ATYCLB because of the claims by Eno (and Lanois?) that they co-wrote significant portions of it? Do we suddenly not like NLOTH for similar reasons?
• At the end of the day, it's not a situation like Blondie's where they basically outsourced 2 or 3 tracks from their recent album to outside producers, then have Chris Stein standing in the background as they perform the lead single off it live on The Tonight Show while the "new" guitarist plays all the important parts. That's not to say I don't like the singles off that album. But in terms of hipster street cred among the fan base, maybe people will look at that and think "How dare they!"

By all accounts, this band still does the writing and then has guys help them in the process. Whatever the extent of that is, it might not differ a whole lot from what it was before. The Haim thing already shows that people can like a song despite at least some of it coming from another source. Unless, of course, Haim and Tedder are the equivalent of cooties in someone's eyes because they're young and not one of the four guys...

Totally fair assessment, and you're right, many folks get credit for what they HAVEN'T done as well as people NOT getting credit for what they have done.

I am certainly not wanting to slam the band for any of it, I just find it interesting, and am curious to hear others insights about these types of things. Maybe it means something to me with U2 because Bono says "we have a contract with our audience. They give us a good living, and we give honest effort to make the best music we can." Again, I'm not saying they are NOT doing that, but scenarios like Tedder and EBW and SOL I think are fair to evaluate. As well as the past stuff with Eno.

I don't want it to be like " we don't talk about that!!" I generally am curious as to others thoughts. I am new here, but have lurked for awhile, and appreciate the excellent conversations you guys have.

 

[Gzusfrk]

What?! Believe it or not, what are you talking about?

I understand he came up with the chorus melody, I’m just not sure that warrants writing credits. I’m sure there are several producers when working with bands like U2 who create in the studio that recommend melody ideas.

And I’m sure he got paid since he was a producer, but the whole U2 paid them off to be quiet is the shit trolls do in order to get people to start spreading that idea around.

Let’s find out the story first, shall we?

Dude, this is why people lurk instead of try to get involved in a healthy conversation on this board, because of people like you.

I never said U2 "paid him off", but that he was compensated. In the music industry, many people are compensated rather than get a writing credit. So we disagree about whether writing a chorus melody should give someone a writing credit, ok??

To you that makes me a troll. We don't need more of the story about EBW, we have it and it's been discussed.

And no, BVS, I do not need nor am seeking relevance from a music message board. I'm good, thanks.

Wow.

 

[BVS]

Dude, this is why people lurk instead of try to get involved in a healthy conversation on this board, because of people like you.



I never said U2 "paid him off", but that he was compensated. In the music industry, many people are compensated rather than get a writing credit. So we disagree about whether writing a chorus melody should give someone a writing credit, ok??



To you that makes me a troll. We don't need more of the story about EBW, we have it and it's been discussed.



And no, BVS, I do not need nor am seeking relevance from a music message board. I'm good, thanks.



Wow.

“Are they seeking relevance and the "fountain of youth" so badly that they will pay other songwriters to NOT get a co-writing credit, and pretend it's their own work??”

This IS the definition of a payoff, that is exactly what you’re suggesting. That is not healthy conversation.

 

[Gzusfrk]

“Are they seeking relevance and the "fountain of youth" so badly that they will pay other songwriters to NOT get a co-writing credit, and pretend it's their own work??”

This IS the definition of a payoff, that is exactly what you’re suggesting. That is not healthy conversation.

Ok, look, I apologize if my wording inferred that, because that was NOT my intent.

However, WHAT I said happens ALL THE TIME in the music industry, that in lieu of a songwriting credit, an individual will be paid as a producer, or whatever and we know that Ryan Tedder was a producer and I'm sure he got paid for it.

The point is, he wrote the chorus melody, I think that's enough for a songwriting credit, you disagree. Ok, that's fine!

This was supposed to be a bigger topic than just this one song, but since we have zeroed in on it, that's fine too! If U2 would have disagreements with Eno about songwriting, obviously it's an important thing for them, but I think it's fine to evaluate.

One last thing, BVS, I don't know you, you don't know me, but you could have just asked me to clarify my statement without getting snarky and labeling me a troll.

 

[kiwilad]

It's a great post, Gzus. In a way I've been contemplating the same stuff a bit this album cycle.
I know Eno and Lanois were a big part of the creative process in previous albums. But because I was a kid in 85 when my fandom started, and because there was no internet in the 90s when I was a peak-fan phase, I never knew about uncredited in-studio collaboration till relatively recently.
Unpacking a U2 cassette and reading every word on the sleeves was highlight of the late 80s/90s for me. And I just believed the 'words by Bono, music by U2' thing.

I have had the same lingering doubt with this album re how purely U2 it is. And yeah I get that's probably cause I'm naive.

And don't worry about BVS . Too much awesome conversation to be had on here to be put off by that sort of thing.

 

[Nick66]

Ok, look, I apologize if my wording inferred that, because that was NOT my intent.

No reasonable person thought you were implying that, and you have no need to apologise. Your topic and thread are legit avenues for discussion.

Dude, this is why people lurk instead of try to get involved in a healthy conversation on this board, because of people like you.

I never said U2 "paid him off", but that he was compensated. In the music industry, many people are compensated rather than get a writing credit. So we disagree about whether writing a chorus melody should give someone a writing credit, ok??

To you that makes me a troll. We don't need more of the story about EBW, we have it and it's been discussed.

And no, BVS, I do not need nor am seeking relevance from a music message board. I'm good, thanks.

Wow.

One last thing, BVS, I don't know you, you don't know me, but you could have just asked me to clarify my statement without getting snarky and labeling me a troll.

BVS calls everyone he disagrees with a troll. And he takes even mild criticism of U2 very personally. Ignore him.

 

[BVS]

Ok, look, I apologize if my wording inferred that, because that was NOT my intent.



However, WHAT I said happens ALL THE TIME in the music industry, that in lieu of a songwriting credit, an individual will be paid as a producer, or whatever and we know that Ryan Tedder was a producer and I'm sure he got paid for it.



The point is, he wrote the chorus melody, I think that's enough for a songwriting credit, you disagree. Ok, that's fine!



This was supposed to be a bigger topic than just this one song, but since we have zeroed in on it, that's fine too! If U2 would have disagreements with Eno about songwriting, obviously it's an important thing for them, but I think it's fine to evaluate.



One last thing, BVS, I don't know you, you don't know me, but you could have just asked me to clarify my statement without getting snarky and labeling me a troll.

Look, I’m not trying to pick a fight.

And I’m no longer talking about the EBW issue.

I’m talking about SOL. The issue seems to be that some are interpreting that this was a song written by One Republic, then used by U2 and they’re getting the song writing credits.

There’s two different scenarios here(regarding the video):

1. It was written by OR and Tedder gave it over to U2.

2. It was a song written by U2 and Tedder was playing it for his band and they were messing around with it.

If it’s number 1, then U2 were wrong for taking the writing credits. That would go beyond any gray area of how much a producer contributed to the track. But think about how many people would know. Do you really think U2’s going to take writing credits for a song knowing that several people outside of just Tedder know that this started out as an OR song, at the risk that someone inside of OR’s camp might say something someday?

 

[BVS]

No reasonable person thought you were implying that, and you have no need to apologise. Your topic and thread are legit avenues for discussion.



BVS calls everyone he disagrees with a troll. And he takes even mild criticism of U2 very personally. Ignore him.

FFS you’re insufferable. This had nothing to do with a disagreement. I only use the word when it aligns directly with Interference’s definition of trolling.

 

[Gzusfrk]

Look, I’m not trying to pick a fight.

And I’m no longer talking about the EBW issue.

I’m talking about SOL. The issue seems to be that some are interpreting that this was a song written by One Republic, then used by U2 and they’re getting the song writing credits.

There’s two different scenarios here(regarding the video):

1. It was written by OR and Tedder gave it over to U2.

2. It was a song written by U2 and Tedder was playing it for his band and they were messing around with it.

If it’s number 1, then U2 were wrong for taking the writing credits. That would go beyond any gray area of how much a producer contributed to the track. But think about how many people would know. Do you really think U2’s going to take writing credits for a song knowing that several people outside of just Tedder know that this started out as an OR song, at the risk that someone inside of OR’s camp might say something someday?

Agreed! That's why I said a big IF regarding SOL, which you're right, we don't know which it is. I hope it's you're second scenario!!

 

[Gzusfrk]

It's a great post, Gzus. In a way I've been contemplating the same stuff a bit this album cycle.
I know Eno and Lanois were a big part of the creative process in previous albums. But because I was a kid in 85 when my fandom started, and because there was no internet in the 90s when I was a peak-fan phase, I never knew about uncredited in-studio collaboration till relatively recently.
Unpacking a U2 cassette and reading every word on the sleeves was highlight of the late 80s/90s for me. And I just believed the 'words by Bono, music by U2' thing.

I have had the same lingering doubt with this album re how purely U2 it is. And yeah I get that's probably cause I'm naive.

And don't worry about BVS . Too much awesome conversation to be had on here to be put off by that sort of thing.

Thanks Kiwi! We're probably close to the same age, because I became a fan in 84, and totally agree, the words "Words by Bono/Music by U2" were like a sacred bond to me too! I had a little difficulty accepting Eno on Luminous Times!!

I hope we learn a little more regarding the Summer of Love scenario w/the Tedder clip. So much focus is on that song (and rightly so, it's fantastic and fresh), but is it fantastic and fresh for U2 because it's a primarily Tedder/One Republic song or not??

The world may never know!

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Ok, Tedder just gave a chorus to EBW without any compensation. I guess we don't know for sure, but we've been round this bend before, he wrote the chorus, not saying the lyrics, but writing the "chorus melody" is pretty significant for that song, IMO, whether you want to believe it or not.

That is NOT an "alternative fact."

You're wrong not in that you're wrong. You're wrong in that you think this is a new phenomena.

 

[Gzusfrk]

You're wrong not in that you're wrong. You're wrong in that you think this is a new phenomena.

I never said it was new, never said I thought it was new. I just was curious from the info we have, how often it has happened in U2's creative process, and was interested to have a dialogue as to whether it matters.

And in the case of EBW, IMHO, I think if Ryan Tedder wrote the chorus melody, that would be sufficient FOR a songwriting credit. Obviously, he didn't get one.

 

[Nick66]

I had a little difficulty accepting Eno on Luminous Times!!

Just curious...does the fact that Eno and Lanois were defacto band members and full collaborators (not just as producers) on NLOTH bother you?

 

[Gzusfrk]

Just curious...does the fact that Eno and Lanois were defacto band members and full collaborators (not just as producers) on NLOTH bother you?

No, I guess because it was fully disclosed and there were no doubts about it.

Now the fact that they let the middle three slip through, that DOES bother me!

 

[kiwilad]

Just curious...does the fact that Eno and Lanois were defacto band members and full collaborators (not just as producers) on NLOTH bother you?

I know you're asking gzuz not me, but no it doesn't. However I'm old and life has beaten romanticism out of me.
When I was younger? Yeah it would have.
Reason being, in the 80s and early 90s I would get into fights defending U2. Stupid I know, but I suspect I'm not alone. One of the great argument I had in my favour while defending them was that they wrote all their own stuff. And didn't need backing musicians/tracks on stage.
Certainly that hasn't been true for a long time. But I THOUGHT it was true.
So young kiwilad would have been devastated. Old kiwilad wants U2 to reunite with the dream team, give the whole album a 'words, music and performances by U2, Eno and Lanois' credit and just bathe in wherever magnificence comes from that.

And while we're at it, I would actually like some backing musicians on stage this tour. Some synths. A guitarist. Prefer that than the sught of Edge stopping playing and the guitar track not stopping - as happened during Best Thing recently.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I never said it was new, never said I thought it was new. I just was curious from the info we have, how often it has happened in U2's creative process, and was interested to have a dialogue as to whether it matters.

And in the case of EBW, IMHO, I think if Ryan Tedder wrote the chorus melody, that would be sufficient FOR a songwriting credit. Obviously, he didn't get one.

It's clearly happened with Eno and Lanois, which is likely why they divorced, with shared custody of Steve Lillywhite.

I think if Ryan Tedder had an issue, he wouldn't have returned to work on Songs of Experience.

 

[Nick66]

I know you're asking gzuz not me, but no it doesn't. However I'm old and life has beaten romanticism out of me.
When I was younger? Yeah it would have.
Reason being, in the 80s and early 90s I would get into fights defending U2. Stupid I know, but I suspect I'm not alone. One of the great argument I had in my favour while defending them was that they wrote all their own stuff. And didn't need backing musicians/tracks on stage.
Certainly that hasn't been true for a long time. But I THOUGHT it was true.
So young kiwilad would have been devastated. Old kiwilad wants U2 to reunite with the dream team, give the whole album a 'words, music and performances by U2, Eno and Lanois' credit and just bathe in wherever magnificence comes from that.

And while we're at it, I would actually like some backing musicians on stage this tour. Some synths. A guitarist. Prefer that than the sught of Edge stopping playing and the guitar track not stopping - as happened during Best Thing recently.

I don't know if it would have bothered me when I was younger, because I remember knowing who Eno was already the first time I heard TUF and the TJT. I felt sorta cool because I could recognise his influence on the record, and I loved it. Then I bought Acadie and really got into Danny Lanois, so again I just thought it was incredible U2 was working with these guys. And I think their sound is so present on those records that it's almost like they were part of the band anyway.

It's one reason I continue to love good parts of NLOTH, even if I agree with the board consensus regarding the terrible three. And like you, I would definitely love to see that team get back together again, but I have a feeling it won't happen. Sadly I'm not even sure Eno at least would be that interested. But who knows, maybe one day they'll dream it all up again, again, and they'll do something together one more time.

Oh, and I'm not saying U2 shouldn't have gone on and worked with other producers. It would have been artistic death not to. But it bears repeating though....U2 is not the same band without Brian and Danny. And my favourite U2 songs are actually the ones that can't be played by two guys on acoustic.

 

[Gzusfrk]

It's clearly happened with Eno and Lanois, which is likely why they divorced, with shared custody of Steve Lillywhite.

I think if Ryan Tedder had an issue, he wouldn't have returned to work on Songs of Experience.

Yeah, whatever the arrangement is, Tedder is cool with it. I just find the whole dynamic interesting, and as fans, whether it means anything to us.

I LOVE the album version of EBW, and I think the chorus is where it takes off! I dig Summer of Love, and regardless who wrote what, it's still a good song!

I am passionate about my favorite artists, like U2, and I'm sure most on this board are the same. Personally, I like to know the creative process, and again, U2 have made their career about longevity, relevance, same four guys, etc., so I think these are fair and interesting topics to look at.

 

[kiwilad]

It's clearly happened with Eno and Lanois, which is likely why they divorced, with shared custody of Steve Lillywhite.

I think if Ryan Tedder had an issue, he wouldn't have returned to work on Songs of Experience.

But this is the point being made. We don't know what the agreement was re EBW. Hence the speculation of this thread. Which seems completely valid speculation. Who knows what Tedder is getting from his arrangement. But the actual melodic hook of a single is a pretty massive thing. So is the recurring lick and the chorus lyric/melody hook on SOL.
I presume Tedder's EBW contribution was actually not as big as 'the chorus melody.
And I suspect U2 wrote the SOL stuff and OR were jamming it. But I don't know. And speculating is kinda the point?
Also, HIAS, hope you enjoyed the acronyms.

 

[Gzusfrk]

I don't know if it would have bothered me when I was younger, because I remember knowing who Eno was already the first time I heard TUF and the TJT. I felt sorta cool because I could recognise his influence on the record, and I loved it. Then I bought Acadie and really got into Danny Lanois, so again I just thought it was incredible U2 was working with these guys. And I think their sound is so present on those records that it's almost like they were part of the band anyway.

It's one reason I continue to love good parts of NLOTH, even if I agree with the board consensus regarding the terrible three. And like you, I would definitely love to see that team get back together again, but I have a feeling it won't happen. Sadly I'm not even sure Eno at least would be that interested.

I'm not saying U2 shouldn't have gone on and worked with other producers. It would have been artistic death not to. But it bears repeating though....U2 is not the same band without Brian and Danny. And my favourite U2 songs are actually the ones that can't be played by two guys on acoustic.

This.

I wish they would stop being obsessed with "songs being able to be played on acoustic" thing. If that's what comes out and is good, then great! If the best stuff can't be played on an acoustic guitar, then great! That's the music we made, deal with it!

 

[kiwilad]

This.

I wish they would stop being obsessed with "songs being able to be played on acoustic" thing. If that's what comes out and is good, then great! If the best stuff can't be played on an acoustic guitar, then great! That's the music we made, deal with it!

Especially when you consider they already wrote some of the great acoustic pop rock songs for Rattle and Hum.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

But this is the point being made. We don't know what the agreement was re EBW. Hence the speculation of this thread. Which seems completely valid speculation. Who knows what Tedder is getting from his arrangement. But the actual melodic hook of a single is a pretty massive thing. So is the recurring lick and the chorus lyric/melody hook on SOL.
I presume Tedder's EBW contribution was actually not as big as 'the chorus melody.
And I suspect U2 wrote the SOL stuff and OR were jamming it. But I don't know. And speculating is kinda the point?
Also, HIAS, hope you enjoyed the acronyms.

I'm trying to figure out what the point is.that U2 have always relied heavily on their producers? That Henry Rollins had a point? What are you trying to prove?

 

[Rachel D.]

The thought of someone else not getting credit doesn’t bother me as much as the idea that U2 can’t write good songs anymore without help.

“Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!”

 

[Gzusfrk]

The thought of someone else not getting credit doesn’t bother me as much as the idea that U2 can’t write good songs anymore without help.

“Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!”

Totally this.