The "3 crap records and your out" rule

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gman

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Remember Bono saying, in his opinion, if you make 3 crap records, you may as well give up. Well, i got to thinking, what do you think he meant by "crap"? Is he referring to quality of material, or Sales...or what...coz if its the latter, u2 could be in the last chance saloon with their next record
 
It's 2 crap records in a row, not 3. And it's in terms of quality of the material, not sales.
 
yeah, but like achtung 11 said, I'm pretty sure it's two crap records in a row and you're out.

there are widely varying opinions on No Line on here, and probably within the band itself as well, but I doubt if they consider it crap if for no other reason than 360's success.
 
U2 probably consider Pop to be a crap album (I think it was their last masterpiece). Clearly they don't consider atyclb to be crap, and I doubt they think htdaab was crap (I would beg to differ heh). Do THEY think nloth was crap? Based on their recent comments, probably they do. What would they do if the next album has the same reception as nloth? Quit? No. Record even less and tour even more? Yep.
 
Or just keep recording and try to improve on what they thought was "crap," because who says they have to hold themselves to something Bono said years ago?
 
He's talking about commercial flops. Ever since he started saying that, it has always been in the context of POP's supposed failure and the band getting older, etc. He started this particular slogan while excusing away POP in the ATYCLB pre and post album hype. Basically saying "don't worry, while POP was a failure, we've bent over and will continue to bend over backwards to make sure as many of you like our music as possible". And then promptly went out and re-recorded POP tracks to hammer that idea home. And then even later, would scrap an entire album because Larry and Adam didn't think it was mainstream enough. (read U2 by U2, if you doubt me). Point is, this is the #1 goal of U2 over the last 10+ years. For good or bad.

If it were only about his opinion he could always justify it by saying "I don't think any of it is crap"...but the excuses always come - from when, exactly? Right.
 
gman said:
Is he referring to quality of material, or Sales...or what...coz if its the latter, u2 could be in the last chance saloon with their next record

How so?

Did the last two albums not sell well in the context of their release years?
 
while NLOTH is my favourite U2 album, it didn't truly connect the way most U2 albums have
as far as I can tell the band is still rather proud of the album, but see it as a somewhat failed because it didn't manage what most U2 albums have done: becoming part of 'the public conscience'

I do think if the same would happen to the next album the band would have to reconsider what they think U2 is all about
 
U2DMfan said:
He's talking about commercial flops. Ever since he started saying that, it has always been in the context of POP's supposed failure and the band getting older, etc. He started this particular slogan while excusing away POP in the ATYCLB pre and post album hype. Basically saying "don't worry, while POP was a failure, we've bent over and will continue to bend over backwards to make sure as many of you like our music as possible". And then promptly went out and re-recorded POP tracks to hammer that idea home. And then even later, would scrap an entire album because Larry and Adam didn't think it was mainstream enough. (read U2 by U2, if you doubt me). Point is, this is the #1 goal of U2 over the last 10+ years. For good or bad.

If it were only about his opinion he could always justify it by saying "I don't think any of it is crap"...but the excuses always come - from when, exactly? Right.

Being popular and a massive rock band like the stones or the Beatles has always been u2's goal. The bands reaction to criticism is what gave us Achtung Baby & ZooTV.
 
Achtung11 said:
It's 2 crap records in a row, not 3. And it's in terms of quality of the material, not sales.

For U2, what's the difference? They treat Pop as if it's a Larry solo album that had about a week of effort put into it.
 
The cold truth is that from here on, there would have to be more than a very good chance that they're 'two and done' anyway.

But yes, I'm inclined to think that Bono would consider a 'crap' album as one that doesn't have the reach he wants, and whether you can measure that in sales these days or not, you can still tell. I'm sure there's a degree of that for him with No Line, saved from being 'Pop II' by the raging success of 360.
 
No doubt the long delay for the next U2 record (and Bono and Edge wasting time on side-projects) is part-and-parcel of the band's disappointment in NLOTH's performance. They're very afraid of losing their grip on a mass audience. Another record that performs at all below commercial expectations at this point, at their age, will largely consign them to being a band of yesteryear, and they know it.

(Although I haven't followed it at all, I'm not sure if I would call the 360 Tour a 'raging success', unless you simply mean putting bums in seats. But I think U2 will always be able to do that over the next ten years, even if no one likes their new music. )
 
The issue that arose with Pop was that they went against the very rule they always stood by: they booked a tour before the album was completed. Before they knew it, time was their biggest enemy to get the thing finished.
 
Being popular and a massive rock band like the stones or the Beatles has always been u2's goal. The bands reaction to criticism is what gave us Achtung Baby & ZooTV.

I don't disagree.

But there is a distinct difference between talking about having a certain goal and what you actually do to achieve that same goal. Meaning, there is a difference between 'conquering the world' by starting out playing bars and clubs and going on American Idol and basically 'auditioning' for millions and millions right out of the gate. There are different paths for different ambitions.

So I want to see someone argue that U2 has always taken the same path to that same ambition. Because they admit themselves (in U2 by U2) that it changed. I can find the direct quote later on this evening. The simple fact is this 'excuse' about 'U2 have always been the same' is usually used to deflect a criticism that U2 actually admits to.

They changed their M.O. after POP. So yeah, I think they've always wanted to be as big as The Beatles and conquer the world. But their creative whims changed to bend over backwards to achieve it - most recently.
 
The issue that arose with Pop was that they went against the very rule they always stood by: they booked a tour before the album was completed. Before they knew it, time was their biggest enemy to get the thing finished.
That's the band's party-line to explain their failure. I personally don't think it's true at all. Paul McGuinness himself said that he thinks they had too much time to work on it, and that was more the problem. Deadlines are good, and shouldn't be extended... except in summer '84 when they extended the album session, but I think that was just by a month or so. And they complained about the same thing back in '84, that the Auzzie/NZ shows weren't up to snuff because they hadn't had enough time after finishing the album. So, it's not a case of "the very rule they always stood by".
 
I don't disagree.

But there is a distinct difference between talking about having a certain goal and what you actually do to achieve that same goal. Meaning, there is a difference between 'conquering the world' by starting out playing bars and clubs and going on American Idol and basically 'auditioning' for millions and millions right out of the gate. There are different paths for different ambitions.

So I want to see someone argue that U2 has always taken the same path to that same ambition. Because they admit themselves (in U2 by U2) that it changed. I can find the direct quote later on this evening. The simple fact is this 'excuse' about 'U2 have always been the same' is usually used to deflect a criticism that U2 actually admits to.

They changed their M.O. after POP. So yeah, I think they've always wanted to be as big as The Beatles and conquer the world. But their creative whims changed to bend over backwards to achieve it - most recently.

As you started your post, I shall start mine. I also do not disagree.

However, I'm not quite on board with the "Pop" argument.

In today's world, I really don't envision U2 having anything more than a Double Platinum album in the U.S. With each passing year, less and less albums reach that status. NLOTH was one of 10 or so Platinum albums released in 2009. So in terms of album sales, U2 as well as their fan base have to adapt - we won't be seeing big sales any more.

However, U2 still may generate a big hit (downloads and/or radio). And I do think that is still a goal.

Also, since "Pop" suffered a backlash, U2 reacted the way they did when they received a backlash from R&H. R&H still had strong sales, but U2 responded to the criticism. I contend that even if "Pop" had sold well, U2 would have responded to the criticism there as well (in other words, ATYCLB may have still resulted).

Furthermore, R&H was about as far as U2 could take the UT/JT era sound. Similarly, I think "Pop" was about as far as U2 could take the AB/Zooropa sound. This is yet another reason for a transition.

It does make one wonder. If there was no backlash against R&H would we have AB? If there was no backlash against "Pop", would we have ATYCLB?

Lastly, the argument for ATYCLB and albums since is this is where U2 are at the moment. In 1996, they were still in that experimental stage. Come 2000, clearly U2 had shifted.

And this shift is most evident on NLOTH. I have not come across any statements that suggest U2 are disappointed with NLOTH other than it didn't sell as well as they hoped. But I don't hear them saying anything else negative. Why should they? They've created some true masterpieces. MOS is one of U2's most brilliant songs - even recognized by other artists as such. I put that song up there with anything from U2's past. But I also adore NLOTH, Breathe, Magnificent, White as Snow, etc. They tried to be a bit too cute with "Crazy Tonight" - the one true weakness on the album, IMO. But that was redeemed in concert.

To summarize, I don't think U2 shifted merely to have big sales. I think they did respond to criticism the way anyone might. If your annual evaluation is so-so, but you feel you did a good job, you might react in a way to change that. U2 did the same. Sales do play a role and U2 did try for something more commecially appealing in their last few albums. That said, not all songs are that commercial. NLOTH is hardly a commercial album despite a few songs that seemed to be thrown on in attempt to be hits. But when I listen to NLOTH, I don't hear a band desperate to make hits no matter what the cost. I hear a very mature band that made a very, very good album that had a few hiccups (as all U2 albums do).
 
The Panther said:
That's the band's party-line to explain their failure. I personally don't think it's true at all. Paul McGuinness himself said that he thinks they had too much time to work on it, and that was more the problem. Deadlines are good, and shouldn't be extended... except in summer '84 when they extended the album session, but I think that was just by a month or so. And they complained about the same thing back in '84, that the Auzzie/NZ shows weren't up to snuff because they hadn't had enough time after finishing the album. So, it's not a case of "the very rule they always stood by".

i can't believe i'm saying this, but i agree with you! pushing back a release date a little is okay, but six months or more and it can mean trouble. look at htdaab - not going into whether the album is good or not, even bono thinks the album as a whole isn't up to snuff. i believe he said the songs are good but the album isn't or something like that. imo, the constant pushing back its release then changing producers altogether meant too many cooks in the kitchen and we got an overcooked album. this might be why the songs of ascent album was dropped, that and nloth's disappointing (by theur standards) sales. rather than take the album in a new direction they probably felt it was best to keep in the vault.

just my theory anyway.
 
Pop overworked or underworked - don't know. The shitty mixing and editing certainly wreaks of a rush job, unfinished even. But then in some of the songs, who knows whether they're overcomplicated from working too long, or messy from not having the time to reign them in and nail them down. I'm sure overall it's a bit of both, track depending.
 
I think the problem is that they are not "cool" anymore.
If you look at achtung baby, Zooropa and pop how they looked at that time, they were cool for many people, but after that period anything else seemed "mellow".Don't get me wrong but I still think they are cool but not for the masses.
U2 needs to root themselves in something that is closer to the masses, and not hanging around with brands that the most of us can't afford.
Just my 2 cents.
 
I don't even know what that means.

I think their 'problem' with the masses, if they have one, is just that they've been pushing shit music, to be honest. Pretty simple.
 
i can't believe i'm saying this, but i agree with you! pushing back a release date a little is okay, but six months or more and it can mean trouble. look at htdaab - not going into whether the album is good or not, even bono thinks the album as a whole isn't up to snuff. i believe he said the songs are good but the album isn't or something like that. imo, the constant pushing back its release then changing producers altogether meant too many cooks in the kitchen and we got an overcooked album. this might be why the songs of ascent album was dropped, that and nloth's disappointing (by theur standards) sales. rather than take the album in a new direction they probably felt it was best to keep in the vault.

just my theory anyway.

HTDAAB is a tricky one. On the one hand it does feel over-cooked. On the other, the demos were terrible! I suspect that the problem may actually be that U2 took too much time off between ATYCLB and HTDAAB.
 
I don't even know what that means.

I think their 'problem' with the masses, if they have one, is just that they've been pushing shit music, to be honest. Pretty simple.

If I take this comment at face value, I disagree emphatically. BUT if all you're saying is that they picked the wrong singles from NLOTH, I agree 100%.
 
Yeah, I mean the songs presented to the public. They're either crap (all the No Line singles) or they're just too shallow, so something like Vertigo can be a monster, but only in the way all inane catchy songs are - a big blast that fades very quickly.

And kenny a, it's really got nothing to do with being cool, or not. U2 really weren't all that cool in the early 90s either. They don't need to try a cool game (they'll fail), they don't need to try a popular game (they'll fail, or sell themselves massively short). I have no idea what you are talking about re 'brands'.

Anyway, it's not 2001, or 1991. It's 2011 (or 2012 or whenever). Just make something great.

With those HTDAAB songs, those early versions were just that - early versions. Obviously they're not really alternate versions, as they label them. Not a case of Version A vs Version B. They're just works in progress from somewhere earlier down the line. The finished versions of those few songs, to me, were all overcooked. Native Son/Vertigo is a different thing, but All Because of You and Sometimes, IMO, both overshot the mark. All Because of You dramatically so.
 
Well HTDAAB had solid sales, 9 million worldwide. and it won Grammy Awards, so lots of people like it even though 00s U2 isn't as popular on this board.

And NLOTH was a critical success also. 5 Million worldwide isn't terrible either, especially in 2009/2010 when album sales were at an all time low.
 
Well HTDAAB had solid sales, 9 million worldwide. and it won Grammy Awards, so lots of people like it even though 00s U2 isn't as popular on this board.

And NLOTH was a critical success also. 5 Million worldwide isn't terrible either, especially in 2009/2010 when album sales were at an all time low.

Logic!?! Truth!?! Come on, posts like this have no place on Interference!!!:wink:
 
HTDAAB is a tricky one. On the one hand it does feel over-cooked. On the other, the demos were terrible! I suspect that the problem may actually be that U2 took too much time off between ATYCLB and HTDAAB.

I've always thought that HTDAAB felt a bit sloppy, on a production level it sounds a bit thrown together, for me, it just lacks the polish of pretty much every other album. I can hear the care that obviously went into the likes of JT, ATYCLB and NLOTH, but in the case of Bomb, it was almost as if they'd spent so long over it that they just wanted to get it off their backs and into the shops.

The mindset has definitely changed though, it used to be about carving out new paths and constantly developing their sound, but now it's more about simply finding the most resonant material, no matter how conventional.

In theory this should work, as truly great songs find a way to connect. The problem with U2 is that they're frequently at their least inspired when they're kind of operating in familiar territory.

They got away with it on ATYCLB because they'd had a 10 year break from that kind of material, but there's definitely the sense of a lack of ideas and even boredom on HTDAAB.

For me, NLOTH didn't develop things enough, outside of two or three tracks it sounds like the kind of thing U2 has done before and better.
 
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