Steve Lillywhite says "NLOTH" was 'failure'

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
The "Armchair Producer" argument holds no water to me. I also can't throw a football at a professional level, but if Donovan McNabb has a bad game, as a Redskins fan, I have the right to say so. Just because I haven't done it, doesn't mean I don't know the knowledge available to critique it.

Music is an art form and professional musicians make music for public consumption. So if I hear a record and I don't like it, I'm supposed to say "Well, I don't like the way this album sounds, but the producer's made a hit before, so I must be wrong"?

By the same token though, if millions of people do like it when you don't, does that make them wrong? No, not at all.

No big deal though. I were to record an album and wanted advice and could ask anyone, I know whose input I'd be seeking, and it wouldn't be you lot. :wink:
 
By the same token though, if millions of people do like it when you don't, does that make them wrong? No, not at all.

No big deal though. I were to record an album and wanted advice and could ask anyone, I know whose input I'd be seeking, and it wouldn't be you lot. :wink:

No, it doesn't make them wrong, but no one's saying that.

Some were in here questioning Lillywhite's prowess as a producer, and they were hit with the disappointing retort of "well how many million selling records have *you* produced?" which is unfair and unrealistic.

It's a message board about music. No one's right or wrong in matters of opinion.
 
It's a message board about music. No one's right or wrong in matters of opinion.

That's exactly what I'm saying, too. And, when I'm going to look at someone's opinion to see who I agree or disagree with, it's much more likely to be someone with a proven track record of success, as opposed to some guy sitting in front of his computer talking about it, that's all.
 
But yeah, there is a reason why he is a very successful producer (and U2 are very successful artists) and you are not. :wink:

Nice try but is Lillywhite successful? That is a legitimate matter for debate. Although I agree with you about U2's success, I do not believe this has much to do with Lillywhite. So it's pretty pointless of you to try to censor people.
 
No, it doesn't make them wrong, but no one's saying that.

Some were in here questioning Lillywhite's prowess as a producer, and they were hit with the disappointing retort of "well how many million selling records have *you* produced?" which is unfair and unrealistic.

It's a message board about music. No one's right or wrong in matters of opinion.

:up:
 
The "Armchair Producer" argument holds no water to me. I also can't throw a football at a professional level, but if Donovan McNabb has a bad game, as a Redskins fan, I have the right to say so. Just because I haven't done it, doesn't mean I don't know the knowledge available to critique it.

I don't mind with someone having a different opinion or giving some critique on the output. But at times it looks like people are just bashing Lillywhite in this thread without any ground/input at all. "He's crap", "He belongs to the '80s", etc. To me that's different from saying "I don't like it when they use Lillywhite, because..." Then there can be a debate about opinions. In the first case it's just a shouting match about someone being envious or something like that.
 
Nice try but is Lillywhite successful? That is a legitimate matter for debate. Although I agree with you about U2's success, I do not believe this has much to do with Lillywhite. So it's pretty pointless of you to try to censor people.

Who exactly is trying to censor you?

And how is Lillywhite's career success a "legitimate matter for debate"? On what grounds?
 
"It was meant to invoke the whole feel of north Africa, of Morocco, and I didn't think that was achieved as well as on other albums, where the atmosphere hits you. I would never call any of U2's work a failure, and I did not."
I agree and disagree, I consider it as an incomplete but successful Mediterranean album more than a failed North-African album. I explain my point of view, these two continents are face to face and this French-Arab guy who escapes on his bike, rue du Marais (marais is a mix of water, ground and vegetation, swamp in english i think) and travels through France and Spain - both countries with strong historical bounds with North Africa, they mixed many times more or less violently- to reach the sea and join its other side. This side where he or his parents were probably born then crossed the sea to get a job like a lot of people legally or illegally still do a few decades after they fought for and got their independance. The album has a side of the coast with classic European rock/pop tunes and some sounds influenced by Fez on the other coast (UC, MOS, F-BB, COL and the more dancing CT live version maybe), Magnificient, a love song, being the bridge between both continents/cultures, with a rock start and a more transe ending. I would have loved EBW to be included because of the sea reference of course (especially the line "every sailor knows that the sea is a friend-made-enemy" to remind that many people die every day while they cross this sea) and an other song like Magnificient but overall, I find this album cohesive because of its diversity, it's similar to the boiling mixed Mediterranean culture with many religions, sounds, perfumes, colors, races, etc living together around this piece of water. So yeah, he's right, it doesn't sound exotic as expected, it's much more subtle in my opinion than just exoticism, it sounds like two worlds colliding, kissing, interpenetrating or unable or just reluctant to do so The evil trilogy CT, SUC and Boots expressed it well, i don't like them but i don't consider them as alien, they're just not well expressed but these people lost in a dizzy world are not out of context at all. The people partying on one side of the Mediterranean sea and just a few miles away there's a civil war like in Algeria or Yugoslavia, it existed, it's really a strange place, not rationnal at all i guess for outsiders and difficult to understand. I'm not sure - i don't know of course, i just suppose- if they and their team (Steve included, judging by his comment on the atmosphere) understood the colossal masterpiece they had in their hands (an album about cousin civilizations, former colonies, immigrants, an erupting burning hot area about to explode or to offer to the world an amazing united mix of cultures, like the pregnant chick in NLOTH, about to give birth, that's the way i feel this album but i can be wrong and overread) if they had pushed the project a bit more or if they were aware of that but found too difficult to achieve it, or found it too serious or even too unpersonal and awkward for rich rock stars to write about that and fully, clearly devellop it into a double album.
 
Who exactly is trying to censor you?

And how is Lillywhite's career success a "legitimate matter for debate"? On what grounds?

Well, Popmartijn was implying that because I am not a producer I have no right to discuss Lillywhite or U2. And Lillywhite's career is a legitimate matter for debate because this is a music site, which allows people to express their opinions on U2 and those who assist them. Popmartijn suggested that Lillywhite's success is so self-evident that I have no right to criticise him. But surely you of all people, will accept that there are no absolutes?
 
Well, Popmartijn was implying that because I am not a producer I have no right to discuss Lillywhite or U2. And Lillywhite's career is a legitimate matter for debate because this is a music site, which allows people to express their opinions on U2 and those who assist them. Popmartijn suggested that Lillywhite's success is so self-evident that I have no right to criticise him. But surely you of all people, will accept that there are no absolutes?

I was not implying that you have no right to discuss Lillywhite. :huh:
I gave a reaction to your statement that you don't take anything that Lillywhite says seriously (and your disappointment that U2 do), meaning that somehow the decisions they made brought them quite a bit of success. That does not mean you don't have the right to criticise him (and I never suggested that in my reply).
If you want to criticise Lillywhite, fine. But give valid arguments, instead of a bland statement that says nothing. We don't know what you're implying with such a statement, thus you can expect broad remarks as an answer. :)

BTW, why do you think that Lillywhite isn't successful?
 
I will admit I didn't read all of the posts in this thread but my biggest problem w/ NLOTH was and still is Boots. Terrible idea to set this one out as first single and admittedly I'm not sure how important singles are these days but the song IMHO is a train wreck. Now hearing all of the better "new" songs they had in the stable why on earth did this steaming pile of shite even make the record?
 
Well, Popmartijn was implying that because I am not a producer I have no right to discuss Lillywhite or U2. And Lillywhite's career is a legitimate matter for debate because this is a music site, which allows people to express their opinions on U2 and those who assist them. Popmartijn suggested that Lillywhite's success is so self-evident that I have no right to criticise him. But surely you of all people, will accept that there are no absolutes?

You're always trying to find someway to make YOU the victim. No one was censoring you and that is not what Popmartijn was implying...

As for Lillywhite, you still didn't answer my question, on what grounds? Anyone who knows anything about music knows Lillywhite is successful, you don't work that long with that many musicians in this business if you're not. So I ask again, on what grounds are you going to debate his success?
 
You're always trying to find someway to make YOU the victim. No one was censoring you and that is not what Popmartijn was implying...

As for Lillywhite, you still didn't answer my question, on what grounds? Anyone who knows anything about music knows Lillywhite is successful, you don't work that long with that many musicians in this business if you're not. So I ask again, on what grounds are you going to debate his success?

I think you're being a little condescending here and, more importantly, misunderstanding one of the previous poster's intent.

Reread the thread: the question of Steve Lillywhite's "success" started when someone said that they don't take Lillywhite's comments seriously and it's a shame that U2 do. That's a comment on Lillywhite's work artistically. Then people jumped on that poster talking about "armchair producers" and saying that there's a reason that Lillywhite's records have sold millions and the poster's have not. That's all good and well - but that's a *financial* argument. Sure, Steve Lillywhite has sold a hell of a lot of records as a producer, but so has Lady Gaga. I don't think anyone was doubting Lillywhite's financial success, they were judging his artistic success. And it doesn't matter how much you "know about music" (what the hell does that even mean anyway?), if you don't like the albums, then you don't like the albums.

That being said, that's not my own personal comment on Lillywhite. I couldn't give a shit less about how much his albums sell, I care about how they sound and this is my comment on it:

When I hear Lillywhite is being brought on to help on a U2 record, I groan. And that is not his fault at all. Lillywhite is a man for radio singles and producing material that will go over well on the radio, but lacks the "otherness" that I love about U2. That's his forte and, as you've all made clear, he's had much financial success doing so. So when U2 brings him in, I fault the band, and it appears Brian Eno does too. When I hear U2 is bringing in Lillywhite, that says to me that the band is scared to put out an album without something watered-down for radio consumption, and so they're willing to compromise the album's artistic integrity for the sake of a radio single. That's the band's fault, not Lillywhite's. He's just producing in his style. I'm just saying that while his style might have been fine for the early 2000s, by this point, when I'm looking for the band to introduce some more weirdness into their sound, I don't like when they resort to bringing him on.
 
I think you're being a little condescending here and, more importantly, misunderstanding one of the previous poster's intent.

This poster has a long history of playing a victim, that's all.

As far as his intent, that's why I asked him very specifically "on what grounds?"

Even your explanation doesn't quite explain it.

Yes I know there is a difference between financial and artistic success, but how does one judge the latter? The man has worked with and been wooed by many very "artisically successful" artists to produce their work.
 
Nice try but is Lillywhite successful? That is a legitimate matter for debate.

Crash (Dave Matthews Band album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's about 16 million in sales between those two alone.

And as far as legitimately great albums are concerned:

Boy (album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Peter Gabriel (1980 album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The La's (album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Vauxhall and I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Crossing (album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If I Should Fall from Grace with God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mean, seriously, if you don't get anything out of those albums, then we're probably not going to agree anyway. That being said, he hasn't done anything worth a damn since the early '90s. The bite that made Melt such a creepy, visceral record and gave The La's and Boy punch is completely gone. Too much time with DMB, Matchbox Twenty, Jason Mraz and Blue October must have dulled his instincts. But that doesn't erase the fact that he was successful, both critically and commercially.
 
Ha, yeah, maybe Eno did all of that, immediately after creating the concept of music in tandem with U2.

Lillywhite has really only produced Crazy Tonight and this.
 
As for Lillywhite, you still didn't answer my question, on what grounds?

He produced Bomb (even if technically it was an army of producers). That is evidence enough.

They usually limit him to mixing the singles; something evidently not done by Eno/Lanois. (who haven't exactly, despite Lanois' claims, been pushing forward on NLOTH themselves...)

It seems to work this way; and the band clearly likes to operate like this: have the Batman and Robin produce in general, while Lillywhite helps with shaping out the single.
 
This poster has a long history of playing a victim, that's all.

As far as his intent, that's why I asked him very specifically "on what grounds?"

Even your explanation doesn't quite explain it.

Yes I know there is a difference between financial and artistic success, but how does one judge the latter? The man has worked with and been wooed by many very "artisically successful" artists to produce their work.

Well I think the point is that you can't really judge "artistic success" by anything other than opinion, which is why we're all here: to share our opinions. Though, I suppose an artist can judge artistic success by whether or not he successfully conveyed through a song what he was intending to convey, both sonically and lyrically. But that's the artist's measure of his own work.
 
Well I think the point is that you can't really judge "artistic success" by anything other than opinion, which is why we're all here: to share our opinions. Though, I suppose an artist can judge artistic success by whether or not he successfully conveyed through a song what he was intending to convey, both sonically and lyrically. But that's the artist's measure of his own work.

:up: Absolutely. In addition, I don't think I am playing the victim, though if people like BVS wish to reach that conclusion, that is their prerogative. I am simply standing up for the idea that nothing should be beyond debate.
 
I think Lillywhite is pretty much on the mark with his comments.

Clearly the album has plenty of defenders here and it all boils down to anyone's personal opinion whether the album was artistically "successful" or not, but I think it's obvious that the album did not shape up to be what it was intended, a point shared by the band who've dropped several key tracks from the 2010 leg of the tour and no longer promote the album. Even the Popmart tour stuck with featuring that album through the entire tour despite it falling short of the general public's tastes.

Like or dislike it, NLOTH was the wrong album for the kind of big outdoor stadium tour the band committed to doing. I think the unplanned break not only hurt whatever small momentum that band had going promoting it, but it also forced the band to realize that having the show based around it just wasn't going to work for the entire tour. IMO, I think the 2010 leg of the tour has been vastly superior to the 2009 shows because they've shifted focus away from NLOTH.

T.B.
 
Crash (Dave Matthews Band album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's about 16 million in sales between those two alone.

And as far as legitimately great albums are concerned:

Boy (album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Peter Gabriel (1980 album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The La's (album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Vauxhall and I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Crossing (album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If I Should Fall from Grace with God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mean, seriously, if you don't get anything out of those albums, then we're probably not going to agree anyway. That being said, he hasn't done anything worth a damn since the early '90s. The bite that made Melt such a creepy, visceral record and gave The La's and Boy punch is completely gone. Too much time with DMB, Matchbox Twenty, Jason Mraz and Blue October must have dulled his instincts. But that doesn't erase the fact that he was successful, both critically and commercially.

The Pogues are one of all my all time favourite bands and i followed them almost as avidly as I followed U2, and whilst Lillywhite did produce the masterpiece If I Should Fall From Grace..he also produced the fairly crap Peace and Love. He was fairly instrumental in getting the band (not Shane) to leave their Celtic traditional roots in favour of a poppier sound, it was the beginning of the end.
 
Back
Top Bottom