ryancoke71
ONE love, blood, life
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Say something negative about Achtung Baby
- Thread starter Jazzthief
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
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The tour version of moment redeemed it somewhat for me though.Re: So Cruel
Sorry to get all muso but need to splurge about why this is not a 'snoozefest' but probably one of their most enduring achievements - Roy Orbison rated Bono's vocal up there with Sinatra's best.
Over what is essentially a 2 chord 'jam' the 'Baby' version traces Bono searching for metaphors (nowhere/disappearing/the ethereal and fleeting nature of relationships/even rage!) and a kind of melodic phrasing and internal dialogue entirely new to him at this point (pauses/clipping/the power of two bars of silence!)
The final version ends up alternately sparse:
I'm only hanging on.............................to watch you go down......................my love
Or busy:
I gave you everything you ever wanted/It wasn't what you wanted
Or emphatic
Baby you're nowhere!
Has anyone else (felt?) the ecstasy of him continually trying the 'Between the horses of love and lust' couplet unsuccessfully earlier in the 'Baby' version before finally landing it rhythmically and melodically toward the end (where it sits in the final mix) with the contained roar of 'we are trampled' followed by a stumbling (and at this point probably improvised but perfectly realised) afterthought 'Underfoot'.
It's all about UNDERSTATEMENT and not sure if he ever managed this kind of marriage of lyric and (varied) melody over a (fairly typical) U2 backing like this later (Miss Sarajevo maybe??).
Especially precious as you would only get this from the kind of jammed (and fairly unusual band) songwriting process they go through - very few singer/songwriters are blessed with the ability to float and dance around a melody like this (Cole Porter??).
Doesn't So Cruel feature the kind of emotional investment from Bono in a song that everyone complains has been missing since? MOS has a fantastic opening (I tied myself with wire!) but quickly falls prey to a more regulated verse/chorus melodic structure and relies on the tried and tested 'Oh oh oh's' to give it any sense of space or release?
Shoot me down but it moved me then and it moves me now. Embarassingly I think I first heard when Steve Wright gave it its first airing on Radio 1 during Achtung Baby day but I may be wrong ('One' was definitely on the Gary Davies Show and that's a whole other story....)
Sorry to get all muso but need to splurge about why this is not a 'snoozefest' but probably one of their most enduring achievements - Roy Orbison rated Bono's vocal up there with Sinatra's best.
Over what is essentially a 2 chord 'jam' the 'Baby' version traces Bono searching for metaphors (nowhere/disappearing/the ethereal and fleeting nature of relationships/even rage!) and a kind of melodic phrasing and internal dialogue entirely new to him at this point (pauses/clipping/the power of two bars of silence!)
The final version ends up alternately sparse:
I'm only hanging on.............................to watch you go down......................my love
Or busy:
I gave you everything you ever wanted/It wasn't what you wanted
Or emphatic
Baby you're nowhere!
Has anyone else (felt?) the ecstasy of him continually trying the 'Between the horses of love and lust' couplet unsuccessfully earlier in the 'Baby' version before finally landing it rhythmically and melodically toward the end (where it sits in the final mix) with the contained roar of 'we are trampled' followed by a stumbling (and at this point probably improvised but perfectly realised) afterthought 'Underfoot'.
It's all about UNDERSTATEMENT and not sure if he ever managed this kind of marriage of lyric and (varied) melody over a (fairly typical) U2 backing like this later (Miss Sarajevo maybe??).
Especially precious as you would only get this from the kind of jammed (and fairly unusual band) songwriting process they go through - very few singer/songwriters are blessed with the ability to float and dance around a melody like this (Cole Porter??).
Doesn't So Cruel feature the kind of emotional investment from Bono in a song that everyone complains has been missing since? MOS has a fantastic opening (I tied myself with wire!) but quickly falls prey to a more regulated verse/chorus melodic structure and relies on the tried and tested 'Oh oh oh's' to give it any sense of space or release?
Shoot me down but it moved me then and it moves me now. Embarassingly I think I first heard when Steve Wright gave it its first airing on Radio 1 during Achtung Baby day but I may be wrong ('One' was definitely on the Gary Davies Show and that's a whole other story....)
gvox
Ghost of Love
Very nice post, blueeddy, very insightful! I tend to agree about So Cruel, absolutely one of Bono's finer songwriting achievements.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
My only criticism of So Cruel is within the music.
Really, I think the gem that came out of AHK-toong was Depeche Mode's cover. It's music gone right, vocals gone wrong.
Really, I think the gem that came out of AHK-toong was Depeche Mode's cover. It's music gone right, vocals gone wrong.
blueeddy said:
EXACTLY! That's part of the beauty of So Cruel, as well as many of the rest of their greats. One of my favorite lines from the uncut version of Almost Famous is from a scene where William asks Russell what he loves about music, and Russell replies:
I've said this many times before, but that's the magic of U2's best----they build build build and never quite fully release. Electrical Storm, Bad, One, and more. In MOS, they've crammed too much in it (I think that could be said for much of HTDAAB and NLOTH). With So Cruel, it may not have a continual build, but it has many momentary points of lyrical and melodic tension that are pure beauty. The line "I'm only hanging' on to watch you go down.........my love" has to be one of Bono's best in both writing and delivery.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
Yeah, that's pretty strange. I don't know how a 14 year old could really get Achtung Baby. There's so much lyrical depth there. Personally, it has only been over the past couple of years, being in a relationship and getting married, that I've really been able to say "holy shit, Bono, nice observation." As sonically impressive as it is off the bat, it's not an album that gets old. It's been a good friend to me that I've grown to appreciate over the years.
The Panther
Refugee
I usually try to avoid quoting someone's long post and then saying "Great post", but I just wanted to say... er, great post!
I think you've greatly elevated my appreciation of "So Cruel", and the observation I liked best was that it is a performance of subtlety and restraint, so unlike the attention-grabbing records of U2's recent years (which isn't to say that attention-grabbing is always bad; in fact U2 do that quite well). The tension and release of tension you mention is certainly palpable just as you describe, and that -- along with the lovely melody -- is what makes the song, for me.
Please post more!
last unicorn
Blue Crack Addict
Sorry, again, my opinion, and I am a writer and read lots of poetry since I'm also a teacher of literature, but that line, to me, is simply not poetic.
Doesn't mean I'm an "expert" or anything because it all comes down to personal taste in the end.
There are so many more lines on that album that are very poetic, intensive, beautiful, but I find So Cruel boring, and yes, the lyrics do match the song structure, I usually find both boring
There are so many much greater lyrics out there by Bono. Yes, there are also many lyrics by Bono that are much much worse, but So Cruel, in my humble opinion, is only mediocre.
That doesn't mean that AB is weak in a lyrical sense. It's a strong album, but it has its weaknesses.
The Panther
Refugee
You're wrong about that. The line is entirely metaphorical, and as such, is figurative, while also scanning nicely. Thus it IS poetic beyond a shadow of a doubt.
What you are actually saying is that it doesn't appeal to your taste, which is fine, but which is a completely different thing.
An Cat Gav
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Agreed. It's also up there with (studio) Pride as his finest vocal performance.
Globo14
Refugee
I personally don't like So Cruel. Many do. More power to them.
I find no need to debate a matter-of-fact opinion, but then again, this is a messageboard.
I find no need to debate a matter-of-fact opinion, but then again, this is a messageboard.
cobl04
45:33
Fair enough if you don't like So Cruel. But you can't deny those lyrics are some of his absolute best, and I say that without being able to relate to them.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
cobl04 said:
Last Unicorn just did.
Let no one suggest that unique thoughts aren't still floating around out there.
cobl04
45:33
If only joyful posted in here, we could ask her if Moz made a nod to U2 the other night.
Jive Turkey
ONE love, blood, life
- Joined
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- Messages
- 13,645
I think revisionist doesn't mean what you think it means
lazarus
Blue Crack Supplier
blueeyedgirl
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Joseph, is that you?????
last unicorn said:Sorry, again, my opinion, and I am a writer and read lots of poetry since I'm also a teacher of literature, but that line, to me, is simply not poetic.
Doesn't mean I'm an "expert" or anything because it all comes down to personal taste in the end.
There are so many more lines on that album that are very poetic, intensive, beautiful, but I find So Cruel boring, and yes, the lyrics do match the song structure, I usually find both boring
There are so many much greater lyrics out there by Bono. Yes, there are also many lyrics by Bono that are much much worse, but So Cruel, in my humble opinion, is only mediocre.
Perhaps I should rephrase. The magic of So Cruel, especially that line, comes in the combination of the lyrics and their delivery. Yes, much of UF, JT, and ATYCLB provide more poetic writing on paper (and sometimes on delivery, too). However, what makes this line remarkable to me is the subtle delivery of such a spiteful lyric, especially with the pause and delivery of "my love." So much complexity arises from this one line and its delivery. You get the feeling that he hates her, yet still holds her close in his heart, perhaps because it was she who tore them apart; that he's pained that their relationship is sinking, yet has resigned himself to the fact that it's sunk; and perhaps more----all from the delivery of one line. More than any other song, So Cruel sets up the crux of the relationship strife present throughout the album.
But we don't have to agree. There is a post of mine somewhere on here from 5 or 6 years ago in which I call So Cruel the weakest track on the album and ask whether anyone even listens to it.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
Utoo said:But we don't have to agree. There is a post of mine somewhere on here from 5 or 6 years ago in which I call So Cruel the weakest track on the album and ask whether anyone even listens to it.
In other words: we've evolved well beyond you, Last Unicorn.
lazarus said:
Laz being rude to someone he disagrees with?
Considering he's got a couple hundred posts and has been here 3 years, I don't think he's a troll. Now, you and I (and practically everyone else) may think he's completely wrong, but...
I know the trend is to dismiss everyone here as nowhere near as cool or knowledgeable as you, but if you're going to participate regularly, it would be nice if you could tone that down a bit.
Go away, you fucking troll.
I must say, I love this emoticon.
lazarus
Blue Crack Supplier
Laz being rude to someone he disagrees with?
Considering he's got a couple hundred posts and has been here 3 years, I don't think he's a troll. Now, you and I (and practically everyone else) may think he's completely wrong, but...
I know the trend is to dismiss everyone here as nowhere near as cool or knowledgeable as you, but if you're going to participate regularly, it would be nice if you could tone that down a bit.
Considering we've just seen a documentary that explains exactly how this was a reinvention, and that you'd have to be deaf to confuse the sound of Achtung Baby with grunge, that post qualifies as trolling to me.
standrums
War Child
I think it's a great album but it's not the be all and end all
Of course it was a significant piece for them and a courageous reinvention that extended their shelf life but I think some of their other albums are better
Of course it was a significant piece for them and a courageous reinvention that extended their shelf life but I think some of their other albums are better
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
lazarus said:
It's a fucking lazy generalization to make and uninformed, for sure.
Just as lazy to go around calling people trolls though IMO.
The Panther
Refugee
I don't think it's right to say that U2 was "going with trends", especially if you're talking about grunge, when they recorded Achtung Baby. On the other hand, it is also their most "trend-aware" album. Let me explain:
U2's entire career has been about doing their own thing, often totally at odds with prevailing pop music trends. In 1990, however, they (well, Bono and Edge) seemed to want to let contemporary influences into their music more than they had prior, and indeed the influence of Nine Inch Nails, the Manchester scene, and various other stuff is clearly there to be heard. In some sense, then, Achtung Baby is a little bit more an LP of its time than most U2 albums... but only in some sense, as it really is not beholden to any one particular style. It's more like an amalgam of things that were in the air at the time -- good things, at that -- but without committing to, or copying, any one of them, and still containing the essential "U2 sound".
I do think they picked the LP tracks perfectly. Some of the B-sides -- notably "Salome" and another one whose title I can't think of at the moment -- actually sound quite dated to circa 1990-1991, and wear their Manchester influences more clearly than anything on the LP does.
But to suggest that U2 followed the "grunge" trend is just not right. First of all, outside of a few media people in Seattle, nobody had heard of grunge in 1990, and even by the time Achtung Baby was finished, it wasn't a big media hype. That only happened in 1992, a year after U2 finished those songs.
It is amazing that U2 were able to enter the alt-rock scene so completely at that time, however. But actually, they'd always been of that scene in North America, even if they were selling 10 million copies. The scene just caught up to U2 and R.E.M. by 1991, not the other way around.
U2's entire career has been about doing their own thing, often totally at odds with prevailing pop music trends. In 1990, however, they (well, Bono and Edge) seemed to want to let contemporary influences into their music more than they had prior, and indeed the influence of Nine Inch Nails, the Manchester scene, and various other stuff is clearly there to be heard. In some sense, then, Achtung Baby is a little bit more an LP of its time than most U2 albums... but only in some sense, as it really is not beholden to any one particular style. It's more like an amalgam of things that were in the air at the time -- good things, at that -- but without committing to, or copying, any one of them, and still containing the essential "U2 sound".
I do think they picked the LP tracks perfectly. Some of the B-sides -- notably "Salome" and another one whose title I can't think of at the moment -- actually sound quite dated to circa 1990-1991, and wear their Manchester influences more clearly than anything on the LP does.
But to suggest that U2 followed the "grunge" trend is just not right. First of all, outside of a few media people in Seattle, nobody had heard of grunge in 1990, and even by the time Achtung Baby was finished, it wasn't a big media hype. That only happened in 1992, a year after U2 finished those songs.
It is amazing that U2 were able to enter the alt-rock scene so completely at that time, however. But actually, they'd always been of that scene in North America, even if they were selling 10 million copies. The scene just caught up to U2 and R.E.M. by 1991, not the other way around.
Rachel D.
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I was 14 when I bought the album in 2002, not when it came out.
People in the mid-30s age group probably like Achtung Baby so much because they grew up with it. I think that's partly why I like ATYCLB so much, because it was "there" when I was growing up.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
They probably like it because it's high-quality, if they're still listening to it 20 years on.
Rachel D. said:
I'm not sure if that correlation is universally true. You were born in 1988? That means that ATYCLB came out when you were 12. I was born in 1993, so I was 12 in 2005, just after Bomb came out. What's my favorite album? Bomb? Nope, it's one of my least favorite U2 albums. Achtung Baby is my favorite.
(I know that it's not universally false. But I don't think that it's why every 30-something likes AB.)
