Pop album - what went wrong..?

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Glennjamin

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I recently started listening to the Pop album again – has some good tunes like Do You Feel Loved and Please.

But what exactly went wrong - they ran out of time making the album? It was rushed?
 
Its all good, it was just my poor attempt at being funny.

Having been on this board for longer than I care to admit I have witnessed many many discussions and arguments over Pop, it tends to be one of the biggest lightning rods around here.

Personally I love the album but I can also see why some don't and why most (the band included) consider it a failure.
 
Anyway, this thread got me thinking, and I re-listened to the album for the first time in a long time. I managed to write down some of my thoughts on one of my favourite albums in U2's discography. Hope this makes sense:

With the massive "ZooTV" tour and record-combo of "Achtung Baby" and "Zooropa" behind them, the attitude as U2 re-convined in 1995 for a work on a new record was decidedly progressive: they would continue to push the envelope as far as they could musically, technologically, and conceptually.

Because of technological aspect of it, this was U2's hardest record to produce. It took so long to complete that it went into what was supposed to have been tour rehearsal time(for the new "Popmart Tour", which was to be bigger and more massive than even "ZooTV").

As a result they were not ready when the tour started in Las Vegas. More importantly, the string of critical success that U2 had going back to the late 80s finally came to an end in 1997 when "Pop" was released, as the reviews were very lukewarm, even poor. U2 were disappointed with its sales...and the fact that "Pop" sold 6,000,000 copies should tell you something about their standards.

U2's peak was over, but I will forever hold that this record was unfairly criticized just because it was so different from everything U2 did before it, but that's a staple of U2's career: change. 'Do You Feel Loved', 'If God Will Send His Angels', 'Staring At The Sun', 'Last Night On Earth', 'Gone', 'If You Wear That Velvet Dress', and 'Please' are just great songs. Also standing out is the closer, a song of desperation and despair, 'Wake Up Dead Man'.

This album may have seemed about lemons and arches and colors and videos making fun of the village people(the opener, 'Discotheque') and all fun and games on the outside, but in reality the lyrics of this record are the most serious and cynical of U2's career.
 
Anyway, this thread got me thinking, and I re-listened to the album for the first time in a long time. I managed to write down some of my thoughts on one of my favourite albums in U2's discography. Hope this makes sense:

With the massive "ZooTV" tour and record-combo of "Achtung Baby" and "Zooropa" behind them, the attitude as U2 re-convined in 1995 for a work on a new record was decidedly progressive: they would continue to push the envelope as far as they could musically, technologically, and conceptually.

Because of technological aspect of it, this was U2's hardest record to produce. It took so long to complete that it went into what was supposed to have been tour rehearsal time(for the new "Popmart Tour", which was to be bigger and more massive than even "ZooTV").

As a result they were not ready when the tour started in Las Vegas. More importantly, the string of critical success that U2 had going back to the late 80s finally came to an end in 1997 when "Pop" was released, as the reviews were very lukewarm, even poor. U2 were disappointed with its sales...and the fact that "Pop" sold 6,000,000 copies should tell you something about their standards.

U2's peak was over, but I will forever hold that this record was unfairly criticized just because it was so different from everything U2 did before it, but that's a staple of U2's career: change. 'Do You Feel Loved', 'If God Will Send His Angels', 'Staring At The Sun', 'Last Night On Earth', 'Gone', 'If You Wear That Velvet Dress', and 'Please' are just great songs. Also standing out is the closer, a song of desperation and despair, 'Wake Up Dead Man'.

This album may have seemed about lemons and arches and colors and videos making fun of the village people(the opener, 'Discotheque') and all fun and games on the outside, but in reality the lyrics of this record are the most serious and cynical of U2's career.

My thoughts as well.

I go through many phases where'er consider Pop my favorite U2 album.
 
Anyway, this thread got me thinking, and I re-listened to the album for the first time in a long time. I managed to write down some of my thoughts on one of my favourite albums in U2's discography. Hope this makes sense:

With the massive "ZooTV" tour and record-combo of "Achtung Baby" and "Zooropa" behind them, the attitude as U2 re-convined in 1995 for a work on a new record was decidedly progressive: they would continue to push the envelope as far as they could musically, technologically, and conceptually.

Because of technological aspect of it, this was U2's hardest record to produce. It took so long to complete that it went into what was supposed to have been tour rehearsal time(for the new "Popmart Tour", which was to be bigger and more massive than even "ZooTV").

As a result they were not ready when the tour started in Las Vegas. More importantly, the string of critical success that U2 had going back to the late 80s finally came to an end in 1997 when "Pop" was released, as the reviews were very lukewarm, even poor. U2 were disappointed with its sales...and the fact that "Pop" sold 6,000,000 copies should tell you something about their standards.

U2's peak was over, but I will forever hold that this record was unfairly criticized just because it was so different from everything U2 did before it, but that's a staple of U2's career: change. 'Do You Feel Loved', 'If God Will Send His Angels', 'Staring At The Sun', 'Last Night On Earth', 'Gone', 'If You Wear That Velvet Dress', and 'Please' are just great songs. Also standing out is the closer, a song of desperation and despair, 'Wake Up Dead Man'.

This album may have seemed about lemons and arches and colors and videos making fun of the village people(the opener, 'Discotheque') and all fun and games on the outside, but in reality the lyrics of this record are the most serious and cynical of U2's career.

Well said. :sexywink:
 
This is not BoMac's attempt at a Mount Temple, is it? Cause otherwise, well said. There is a lot of love about this album, and I personally find any shortcomings forgivable. It's not in heavy rotation because it's such a difficult album, both emotionally and sonically, but there's not much that I can find it in my heart to be pissy about. Some of those songs were just incredible. I think if a bunch of artists did a tribute record some day the songwriting would get a lot of props, but that will never happen.
 
Pop is my 3rd favourite album of theirs after Achtung Baby and The Joshua Tree. It was the last record of my crazy teenage fandom phase. After Pop and the Y2K fiasco, the new millenium started and we all grew up. :(
 
I recently started listening to the Pop album again – has some good tunes like Do You Feel Loved and Please.

But what exactly went wrong - they ran out of time making the album? It was rushed?

Nothing went wrong with this album, it's a great album!!!!
Discotheque, Do you feel loved, Mofo, Starring at the Sun, Last night, Gone, Please, Wake up dead man ...... are all incredible songs. For the most parts better than anything the produced later. It was just badly perceived because media said U2 turned into electro and techno music, which is totally wrong! Some very good rock music in there, harder than the 00's poppy stuff.....
PopMart started on a bad note, media didn't like the album and people followed the reviews like sheeps..... to me it's the last GREAT album U2 released, even though I like them all a lot....
 
Nothing went wrong in my view. The album is an impressive member of the catalogue. A unique version of U2 was captured here, and the fact that U2 had the balls to create songs like Mofo, Miami and Discoteque (all of which I find very enjoyable) is what makes them the finest musical artist of all time in my opinion. What went wrong? The savaging critical reviews and lukewarm popular reception. But that risk was always there when you release such a polarising album. I like to think that over time, the risk is being interpreted by fans and critics, as well worth it.
 
I think it's one of U2's worst, but its saving grace is that it was produced in a genuine spirit of experimentation and artistic endeavour.

It's a bit of a failed experiment, a case of the band going crazy in the studio, running out of time and going on a limb. It sounds cool and the bass and drums (and synth programming) are spectacular, but it doesn't help that Bono's voice is shot throughout the album and the Edge's guitar is not very apparent (I think he was a bit at a loss as to what should be the role of the guitar in this new music).

Apart from scheduling the tour before the album was finished, the mistake was to hire two producers (Flood and Howie B) that were brilliant at sound treatment but not so expert at helping structure songs. Hence a record with great sounds but where some of the songs, such as "Please", IGWSHA, sound like messy demos, you can see the potential but the song is not really there yet.

I think the latter live versions of the songs are great, so there's clearly something there, but the album is a complete mess. Of course, for U2 fans and completists (such as myself) this makes it very intriguing and worth listening to, but more for what it reveals about the band than for enjoyment!

PS: Apologies to all the POP fans, tis is just my humble opinion and does not invalidate yours!
 
I think it's one of U2's worst, but its saving grace is that it was produced in a genuine spirit of experimentation and artistic endeavour.

It's a bit of a failed experiment, a case of the band going crazy in the studio, running out of time and going on a limb. It sounds cool and the bass and drums (and synth programming) are spectacular, but it doesn't help that Bono's voice is shot throughout the album and the Edge's guitar is not very apparent (I think he was a bit at a loss as to what should be the role of the guitar in this new music).

Apart from scheduling the tour before the album was finished, the mistake was to hire two producers (Flood and Howie B) that were brilliant at sound treatment but not so expert at helping structure songs. Hence a record with great sounds but where some of the songs, such as "Please", IGWSHA, sound like messy demos, you can see the potential but the song is not really there yet.

I think the latter live versions of the songs are great, so there's clearly something there, but the album is a complete mess. Of course, for U2 fans and completists (such as myself) this makes it very intriguing and worth listening to, but more for what it reveals about the band than for enjoyment!

PS: Apologies to all the POP fans, tis is just my humble opinion and does not invalidate yours!
How dare you to have an other opinion than the majority of people in this thread! It can actually influence people's wellbeing, you know?
Don't believe me? Just read the Ordinary Love thread. I love Pop a lot, but I can see where you're coming from, so you're opinion is fine :wink:
 
How dare you to have an other opinion than the majority of people in this thread! It can actually influence people's wellbeing, you know?
Don't believe me? Just read the Ordinary Love thread. I love Pop a lot, but I can see where you're coming from, so you're opinion is fine :wink:

He! Thanks for your tolerance! I think it's great people love Pop, the band really made it as a great statement and it's good to see some people got the message.
 
I think it's one of U2's worst, but its saving grace is that it was produced in a genuine spirit of experimentation and artistic endeavour.

It's a bit of a failed experiment, a case of the band going crazy in the studio, running out of time and going on a limb. It sounds cool and the bass and drums (and synth programming) are spectacular, but it doesn't help that Bono's voice is shot throughout the album and the Edge's guitar is not very apparent (I think he was a bit at a loss as to what should be the role of the guitar in this new music).

Apart from scheduling the tour before the album was finished, the mistake was to hire two producers (Flood and Howie B) that were brilliant at sound treatment but not so expert at helping structure songs. Hence a record with great sounds but where some of the songs, such as "Please", IGWSHA, sound like messy demos, you can see the potential but the song is not really there yet.

I think the latter live versions of the songs are great, so there's clearly something there, but the album is a complete mess. Of course, for U2 fans and completists (such as myself) this makes it very intriguing and worth listening to, but more for what it reveals about the band than for enjoyment!

PS: Apologies to all the POP fans, tis is just my humble opinion and does not invalidate yours!

I have to agree, they thought they can reinvent them again but it didn´t work, they tried to implement dance music influences but they failed (maybe with Do you Feel Loved and Disco exceptions), as Bono said they tried to make it sound like party but it ended up like a hangover. The worst example of their experimentation is their weakest track ever Miami, it contain nothing except one simple groovey riff and another one is Playboy Mansion which is the most boring U2 song ever that could have written any local band. But at least they challenged themselves and tried something new unlike with the next album ATYCLB, which was tame, safe, radio friendly record, U2 just trying to please mainstream audition. They are clever, they suceeded with it, but it was artisticaly their most sellout record, but that´s another story...
 
Okay, now we are warming into a real Pop thread. I wrote about this not long ago in another thread, but the longing and the irony of "Then there will be no time for sorrow/then there will be no time for shame" is NOT the kind of line that any local band would write.
 
I put my thoughts on PoP elsewhere and couldn't be bothered at the moment to look it up. Im proud of those thoughts, however. PoPMart was my first U2 concert, though I was so bombed out of my mind I just remember a giagantic screen, ear-splitting sound, and the band went flying around the stadium in a lemon.

And somehow we ended up with real lemons in our pockets after the show, not lie there.

PoP the album, they left Holy Joe off of the thing for some reason. Other than that, its perfect. Easily my 3rd favorite U2 album...and sometimes its my first or second.
 
In retrospect, Pop was the beginning of the still-ongoing U2 career-curve, which goes like this: Spend as long as possible recording an album, with as many producers as possible, spending as much time and money as can be justified, only to re-record the same songs ten thousand times until their vitality has been sapped, and then embark on an endless, time and energy-consuming tour of stadiums (with corporate sponsorship -- also a new thing that the Pop-era brought). How well or poorly this career-curve works varies with the commercial success of the relevant album.

But more to the question by the OP -- and besides the endless time spend on sessions, as mentioned -- what I think went 'wrong' with Pop is that its period simply marks the end of U2's main and most vital creative burst. This is nothing to be ashamed of, as it happens to every stable combo after a certain period (usually 6-7 years, or 4-5 albums, whichever comes first -- for example, The Beatles collectively and solo after about 1972, or Prince after 1987). U2's peak as a creative combo (and as recording artists, I would argue) was roughly 1983 to 1993, obviously an incredible period of success for them. I think, with the 1996 sessions, they hit a wall for the first time, where it became difficult to generate ideas naturally and organically (the more so given the incredibly high standards they set for themselves -- this in itself necessitates staring down brick walls far more than an average group in their sales bracket would bother with). In other words, I think, in 1996-ish, U2 started generating ideas intellectually. While this inevitably led to some good ideas and some great songs, it also decisively ended the era of U2 being vital artists.

Bob once said, regarding the year 1974 (when he wrote the Blood On The Tracks songs), that, after going to art classes in New York City, he had to "learn to do consciously what I used to do unconsciously". He certainly succeeded with that particular set of songs, but only sporadically thereafter. I think this is broadly comparable with U2 from the mid-1990s onwards.

(Saying this, I don't mean to discount other fairly obvious factors in Pop's lukewarm reception, such as the lack of a big radio song, people's tastes moving on to post-grunge and Britpop, the poorly received video, the overblown tour, etc. But I think focus on those -- or the band's own absurd 'excuses' for why the record "failed" -- is to overlook the larger matter.)

Eventually, you reach a point as an artist when you can't keep going in the same line of artistic pursuit anymore. That one direction may have involved all sorts of diverse artistic results, but it all occurred in one's original, most 'natural' method of creation. Reaching this point of not being able to continue creating in such an organic way, the artist has to decide (itself an 'unnatural' self-conscious process) whether to continue repeating what's been done, or whether to keep developing artistically, but in newer, less natural, highly self-conscious ways.

U2 chose the latter, and they're the better for it, even if they'll never be as artistically vital as they were. That's not their fault. Pop simply marks the point when U2 reached this inevitable stage in an artist's development.
 
Being quite a new member, this is the first time I talk about 'Pop' here.

I believe 'Pop' is well set in the music range of the late 90s. I'm not in any way saying it is a trend follower. On the contrary, I find it assimilates sounds from that era to eventually turn them into a point of strenght and originality, in the typical U2's vein and sensibility.

Some songs have psychedelic echoes - just think about Gone, Miami, If You Wear That Velvet Dress (which is wonderful to me). Psychedelic echoes are there from the start as part of the colourful artwork and partly reproduced on some of the Popmart projections.

The whole album has a sense of despair and malaise permeating the music - see Staring At The Sun, If God Will Send His Angels, Please. It will not ever be the same in any following U2 album since then, even if that feeling is still present in many U2 songs of the 2000's (rather lyrically I'd say) - which I think are equally beautiful. I just mean that 'Pop' is probably the only time where the music (being chords, structures or sounds) is fully permeated of that sadness, I don't know how to put it.

The lyrics are beautiful, strong, and as I'm not a native speaker, many are still a mystery to me. Everytime I put 'Pop' on, it's a journey I gladly take for the entirety of the tracklist. I mainly listen to it in the evening.

IMHO Discotheque is placed there as the "we're back but we don't sound as you knew us" first single, and the video completes that.

Mofo is an outstanding sonic experiment for a rock band and displays some TRULY great lyrics.

So if something went wrong with 'Pop', it was eventually incredibly right - for how I feel it.
 
Very
In retrospect, Pop was the beginning of the still-ongoing U2 career-curve, which goes like this: Spend as long as possible recording an album, with as many producers as possible, spending as much time and money as can be justified, only to re-record the same songs ten thousand times until their vitality has been sapped, and then embark on an endless, time and energy-consuming tour of stadiums (with corporate sponsorship -- also a new thing that the Pop-era brought). How well or poorly this career-curve works varies with the commercial success of the relevant album.

But more to the question by the OP -- and besides the endless time spend on sessions, as mentioned -- what I think went 'wrong' with Pop is that its period simply marks the end of U2's main and most vital creative burst. This is nothing to be ashamed of, as it happens to every stable combo after a certain period (usually 6-7 years, or 4-5 albums, whichever comes first -- for example, The Beatles collectively and solo after about 1972, or Prince after 1987). U2's peak as a creative combo (and as recording artists, I would argue) was roughly 1983 to 1993, obviously an incredible period of success for them. I think, with the 1996 sessions, they hit a wall for the first time, where it became difficult to generate ideas naturally and organically (the more so given the incredibly high standards they set for themselves -- this in itself necessitates staring down brick walls far more than an average group in their sales bracket would bother with). In other words, I think, in 1996-ish, U2 started generating ideas intellectually. While this inevitably led to some good ideas and some great songs, it also decisively ended the era of U2 being vital artists.

Bob once said, regarding the year 1974 (when he wrote the Blood On The Tracks songs), that, after going to art classes in New York City, he had to "learn to do consciously what I used to do unconsciously". He certainly succeeded with that particular set of songs, but only sporadically thereafter. I think this is broadly comparable with U2 from the mid-1990s onwards.

(Saying this, I don't mean to discount other fairly obvious factors in Pop's lukewarm reception, such as the lack of a big radio song, people's tastes moving on to post-grunge and Britpop, the poorly received video, the overblown tour, etc. But I think focus on those -- or the band's own absurd 'excuses' for why the record "failed" -- is to overlook the larger matter.)

Eventually, you reach a point as an artist when you can't keep going in the same line of artistic pursuit anymore. That one direction may have involved all sorts of diverse artistic results, but it all occurred in one's original, most 'natural' method of creation. Reaching this point of not being able to continue creating in such an organic way, the artist has to decide (itself an 'unnatural' self-conscious process) whether to continue repeating what's been done, or whether to keep developing artistically, but in newer, less natural, highly self-conscious ways.

U2 chose the latter, and they're the better for it, even if they'll never be as artistically vital as they were. That's not their fault. Pop simply marks the point when U2 reached this inevitable stage in an artist's development.

Very well put together. I can only AGREE with most of it. Bravo!
 
I know some people on here and elsewhere have been citing "lukewarm" critical reviews, but weren't the reviews actually pretty good for the album upon its release? Some of the 1997 ones seemed to be in the higher range of the spectrum, and I was always under the impression that a lot of the backlash came much later.
 
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