Morrissey and Bono

[Niceman]

I can respect that. I was just speaking lyrically, meaning lyrics on their own, on a seperate piece of paper, without musical accompaniment...to me it seems like a no-brainer that Morrissey is a better writer.

But that's also why i signalled out those select lyrics from Bono which i think are among his best. Running to stand still, so cruel, until the end of the world...take those lyrics on their own and they're excellent. They can exist without the music. They hold up. They tell a story. It's a complete thought. Bad's lyrics aren't bad, mind you, but i think it's mainly Bono's voice which is the star of that song. He could be singing the phone book on that number. The power comes from his voice, they way he belts out certain words. And again, this is why i think U2 are better song writers and melody makers than The Smiths.

But read those lyrics again; Bad does pretty well on its own too!

Whereas HSIN, if you found it in a poetry book, without the singing, without the vocal, I think it looks kinda plain, kinda too simple on a page.... if that's what you wanted to compare..... Look at the opening lines;

I am the son
and the heir
of a shyness that is criminally vulgar
I am the son and heir
of nothing in particular

WITHOUT the inflection, without the pronunciation, just as lines....... kinda ho hum.......for me at least. Until Moz shows us and adds his personality and voice to them....

 

[Sicy]

I know it is a generalization, but do you think that there are more Moz fans that hate U2 than there are U2 fans that hate Moz?

I think I see more spit headed towards Bono over at the Morrissey-solo site then the other way around!

Definitely. I think U2 fans are more respectful of him than the other way around. There is a U2 thread over there though! Like 3 people post in it.

 

[ozeeko]

But read those lyrics again; Bad does pretty well on its own too!

Whereas HSIN, if you found it in a poetry book, without the singing, without the vocal, I think it looks kinda plain, kinda too simple on a page.... if that's what you wanted to compare..... Look at the opening lines;

I am the son
and the heir
of a shyness that is criminally vulgar
I am the son and heir
of nothing in particular

WITHOUT the inflection, without the pronunciation, just as lines....... kinda ho hum.......for me at least. Until Moz shows us and adds his personality and voice to them....

I guess it all just depends on what you view as poetry or whatever. I think Bono makes good use of expected poetic references in many songs, he references hills, valleys, skies, lots of scenery, lots of landscapes, lots of things the average person would view as poetic. Moz is more about getting to the heart of the matter, and even what appears simple is pretty complex when you put it under the magnifying glass. Like "when you say it's gonna happen now, well what exactly do you mean? see i've already waited too long, and now my hope is gone." These lines are deceptively simple, but just try to analyze them, over and over again, you'll start to see the genius in them. (or maybe you won't)

But anyway, Bono is a huge fan of Charles Bukowski, a guy who writes pretty plainly, his writing isn't showy and is easy to understand. But it's all about how much control the writer has over his words. And Morrissey has total control, in my opinion, over his words.

I love the poetry of Rimbaud. Love the crazy surrealistic lyrics of mid-60's Dylan. It always seems more like poetry to be overly abstract and descriptive. And I love that side of poetry! But for someone like Morrissey, it's more the Charles Bukowski approach. It's the using of plain language, but using it in a poetic way. That's how i see Morrissey. What you see as ho-hum, i see something else, where-as you might see something Bono has written like "true colours fly in blue and black through silken sky and burning flag" as impressive, i see as just random words thrown together more for their sound than meaning.

 

[Niceman]

I guess it all just depends on what you view as poetry or whatever. I think Bono makes good use of expected poetic references in many songs, he references hills, valleys, skies, lots of scenery, lots of landscapes, lots of things the average person would view as poetic. Moz is more about getting to the heart of the matter, and even what appears simple is pretty complex when you put it under the magnifying glass. Like "when you say it's gonna happen now, well what exactly do you mean? see i've already waited too long, and now my hope is gone." These lines are deceptively simple, but just try to analyze them, over and over again, you'll start to see the genius in them. (or maybe you won't)

But anyway, Bono is a huge fan of Charles Bukowski, a guy who writes pretty plainly, his writing isn't showy and is easy to understand. But it's all about how much control the writer has over his words. And Morrissey has total control, in my opinion, over his words.

I love the poetry of Rimbaud. Love the crazy surrealistic lyrics of mid-60's Dylan. It always seems more like poetry to be overly abstract and descriptive. And I love that side of poetry! But for someone like Morrissey, it's more the Charles Bukowski approach. It's the using of plain language, but using it in a poetic way. That's how i see Morrissey. What you see as ho-hum, i see something else, where-as you might see something Bono has written like "true colours fly in blue and black through silken sky and burning flag" as impressive, i see as just random words thrown together more for their sound than meaning.

Well, you narrow in on the best line on the Smiths song! And rightly so! But I don't think much of the rest of the song as a written lyric. It reads as very boring and unexceptional to me. As a performed vocal it's fantastic! But I think that's another thing...

I enjoy that stream of consciousness image painting that Bono used to do. I think its to the detriment of his recent work that he has gotten more concrete this decade. (NLOTH is a step back in the right direction.)

Again though, as we honestly discuss this I think we do prove my initial point: totally a matter of taste! Both bands rock!

 

[ozeeko]

Agreed, both bands do rock, at the end of the day U2 have the songs and the melody whereas The Smiths have Morrissey's lyrics (but Marr's music ain't too shabby either). Anyway, i'm going to bed. Peace.

 

[Niceman]

Agreed, both bands do rock, at the end of the day U2 have the songs and the melody whereas The Smiths have Morrissey's lyrics (but Marr's music ain't too shabby either). Anyway, i'm going to bed. Peace.

Goodnight! Good talking to you!


btw, my favorite Smiths song is "Please Please Please let me get what I want."

 

[gvox]

I don't compare the two lyricists. But, if I were to examine How Soon Is Now, I wouldn't use the opening verse at all. This one:

You shut your mouth
how can you say
I go about things the wrong way
I am human and I need to be loved
just like everybody else does

stands up with just about anything Bono has ever written, imo.

 

[gvox]

btw, my favorite Smiths song is "Please Please Please let me get what I want."

Not my favorite, but a gem indeed.

 

[Niceman]

I don't compare the two lyricists. But, if I were to examine How Soon Is Now, I wouldn't use the opening verse at all. This one:

You shut your mouth
how can you say
I go about things the wrong way
I am human and I need to be loved
just like everybody else does

stands up with just about anything Bono has ever written, imo.

A much stronger passage than the opening lines, but honestly? "I am human and I need to be loved just like everybody else does" reads like the most mundane cliche of a line when Morrissey isn't reading it. When he IS, he expresses an irony which makes the line quite good. (IMO)

 

[gvox]

Dude, pretty much all of Bono's lines fall into that kind of criticism and further qualification (basically, that "it's the singer not so much the song/lyrics"), then.

I don't really see much irony in that line, at all. Or maybe we think of irony in two different ways.

 

[Niceman]

Dude, pretty much all of Bono's lines fall into that kind of criticism and further qualification (basically, that "it's the singer not so much the song/lyrics"), then.

I don't really see much irony in that line, at all. Or maybe we think of irony in two different ways.

I agree with your first point, but there had been an attempt to read HSIN and Bad as just lyrics written on a page. A project flawed from the start - but that's what we were doing.

I read it as irony in the sense that he is delivering a line which is as cliched as you could possibly be and yet pronouncing it as if it actually were a new and fresh thought. I think he manages it in the performance.

 

[gvox]

I read it as irony in the sense that he is delivering a line which is as cliched as you could possibly be and yet pronouncing it as if it actually were a new and fresh thought.

Ah, ok

Well, in that case, Bono wins hands down for One. (just kidding!!)

In all seriousness, it's not realllly irony unless there is implied acknowledgement that singing it as if it is a new and fresh thought is a rather silly notion. He may perform it live that way now, looking back with more wisdom and experience and realizing how naive it was back then for him to write something so sincere...but back then I can't really see that there was any irony intended, at all. Or maybe I read way more into the song (being an impressionable teen back then) than was there.

ETA: I just said "back then" at least 6 times. Man, I'm old.

 

[Niceman]

Ah, ok

Well, in that case, Bono wins hands down for One. (just kidding!!)

In all seriousness, it's not realllly irony unless there is implied acknowledgement that singing it as if it is a new and fresh thought is a rather silly notion. He may perform it live that way now, looking back with more wisdom and experience and realizing how naive it was back then for him to write something so sincere...but back then I can't really see that there was any irony intended, at all. Or maybe I read way more into the song (being an impressionable teen back then) than was there.

ETA: I just said "back then" at least 6 times. Man, I'm old.

I guess I find it a hard pill to swallow that he could have EVER sung the line without knowing how naive it would have sounded.... but maybe I was cynical....back then!

 

[jinn77]

Morrisey is a racist pseudo intellectual twat. You can't use art as an excuse to flirt with the far right as he did in the early 90s. He hates British Asians, his lyrics from the eighties are a testament to that. I abhor the man.

 

[Niceman]

Morrisey is a racist pseudo intellectual twat. You can't use art as an excuse to flirt with the far right as he did in the early 90s. He hates British Asians, his lyrics from the eighties are a testament to that. I abhor the man.

Oh! I must have missed that! What lyrics are these?

 

[gvox]

 

[Screwtape2]

I am the son
and the heir
of a shyness that is criminally vulgar
I am the son and heir
of nothing in particular

WITHOUT the inflection, without the pronunciation, just as lines....... kinda ho hum.......for me at least. Until Moz shows us and adds his personality and voice to them....

You think those lines are ho hum? I think they are among his best lines. To each their own. That first sentence sums up the song perfectly. Spoken or not that's a powerful description of a mental state.

I enjoy that stream of consciousness image painting that Bono used to do. I think its to the detriment of his recent work that he has gotten more concrete this decade. (NLOTH is a step back in the right direction.)

I think Bono back in the day had some of the most cinematic rock lyrics. The biggest difference between Morrissey and Bono in the 80's and 90's was that Bono went for the sketch of a place or person while Morrissey went for the emotion. In this decade, Morrissey seems to have kept to that while Bono has focused mostly on getting a message across.

 

[Niceman]

You think those lines are ho hum? I think they are among his best lines. To each their own. That first sentence sums up the song perfectly. Spoken or not that's a powerful description of a mental state.

I think Bono back in the day had some of the most cinematic rock lyrics. The biggest difference between Morrissey and Bono in the 80's and 90's was that Bono went for the sketch of a place or person while Morrissey went for the emotion. In this decade, Morrissey seems to have kept to that while Bono has focused mostly on getting a message across.

Taken simply as written lines in a book - yes. Sung? No, the lines are brilliant!

I think you sum up their styles well.