Ireland Bankrupt - Should U2 Move back to Dublin to help out

[Aygo]

They did build a few roads, in fairness. Not sure if we need all these roads any more, but anyway!

Btw, we had a zero rate of corporation tax before joining the European Community! It is not correct to say we did not compromise.

Ireland, to be blunt, isn't European, and neither is Britain. In my view both countries should aim to remove themselves from the European Union which is a crazy federalist project. We should ally ourselves with Britain and the Scandinavians.

We are quite prepared to destroy the Euro if our taxpayers are forced into starvation to pay the bad gambling debts of German, French and Belgian banks. We cannot repay these debts and we will not do so.

In her defence, Merkel is trying to put together a plan so that in the future bondholders have to take a hit if banks fail. I agree with her on this.

Bingo! Why don't the financial markets attack France (89% of public debt) or Belgium (96% of public debt and Belgium can't hold on a Government for years this past decade, they had no political stability for years)?

Because their bank are in control and messed up with all this robbery scheme.

 

[Marien]

Isn't the VAT going to increase to 24%? In Portugal we already have 21% it will increase to 23% (but I'm sure that it'll go to 25% or more after the IMF)... Poor irish too...

Maybe it is 24%, I was working while listening to the news. Yes, I agree, poor Irish, the people aren't guilty of anything, but they are going to pay for their leaders.

 

[financeguy]

Well, you built the M-50 and the N-2 near Dublin, but nothing in the rest of the country

Actually, there have been a lot more built since then, your knowledge is a good few years out of date. (I personally disagree with spending a lot on building motorways and would have preferred to see more spent on rail, but that's a separate issue.)

your governments have been getting lots of money for a long time, I know you were in a very bad situation before getting into the EU, so I don't ask about the first 20 years, you built homes for people, that's ok, but what's happened to the money from last years? I'm interested because part of this money was mine; you know there have been a few scandals about that, but in the end nothing has been done, you can travel to Portugal or Spain, that were also poor countries before they got into the EU, you can see their infrastructures, they are ten times better than those in the UK because they are new, where are your industries? and how do you want to have a good economy without having an industrial sector, of any kind?

Spain is in a bad position too, surely? 20% unemployment, 45% youth unemployment? Property bubble as bad as Ireland's, or so I have read. I am not sure if I am going to take lectures on financial management from Spain. As for Portugal, when I visited Lisbon for a conference a few years ago and chatted to some locals, they complained bitterly about the political corruption there (also a problem in Ireland, granted).

Finally about the taxes, I don't mind if you had them or not before getting into the European Union, the fact is that you attracted the multinationals because the taxes were very low or didn't exist and nobody talked about the countries and the employees they were leaving behind, you thought it was ok because it was good for your country, but then a new tax was created for the Irish corporations (and sometimes I think it was tailor-made for U2) and when U2 moved their business, you started to cry about it, well, you can't play a double game, if it is fair, legal and good when it is to your benefit, then it is fair, legal and good when it is not, the contrary is pure hypocrisy.

As I've said before, I was never in favour of the European Community being anything more than a free trade arrangement. It was presented as such when we first joined but unfortunately our political classes were bribed into, and subsequently bribed the electorate into, signing up to all the treaties the Eurofederalists came up with. So I'm not getting into a ideological debate with you about taxes as I fundamentally ideologically disagree with Brussels having any remit over taxation affairs of member countries of the EU.

All I can say is that nothing was hidden regarding the corporation tax rate, the Irish negotiators said they wanted to hold onto it in various negotations for all the Treaties we have signed up to and this was agreed to by our European partners. If it was such a big issue, they should have just chucked us out of the EU (personally, I really wish they had). Too late to complain now.

One thing I would say, is that at least in Ireland, we had referenda to agree each step of the process. I understand that your governments just sign you up to any treaty they like and do not consult the people. Some continentals have an odd understanding of democracy, as we've seen from the history of the twentieth century.

This is why I admire the British system - they are a true parliamentary democracy. They have never sold out to the European federalists.

 

[MrBTH]

Well, you built the M-50 and the N-2 near Dublin, but nothing in the rest of the country

Try getting your facts right before passing comment. There are motorways linking Dublin with all the major cities - M1, M2, M4, M6, M7, M8, M9, the M50 and bits of the M11 as well as the mostly complete M18 between Galway and Limerick. The fact you don't know this somewhat negates the rest of your post which spouts further generalizations and mis-truths about the Irish economy.

The fact is that the Irish economy is relatively healthy in a European context with modest growth and trade in line with other peripheral countries. it is the banks alone who are causing Ireland's hardship, the actions of a few, gambling with the funds provided by other investors, losing very badly and expecting the Irish taxpayer to bail them out so their investors won't take the ball away and stop playing the game. The Irish people need to tell the investors and "senior stakeholders" that they have lost their bet and to fu*k off and let us get on with rebuilding our domestic economy, servicing the sovergn debt instead of propping up private institutions at the behest of our corrupt and innefectual government. Default on the bank debt is the only option.

 

[Aygo]

I'm interested because part of this money was mine; you know there have been a few scandals about that, but in the end nothing has been done, you can travel to Portugal or Spain, that were also poor countries before they got into the EU, you can see their infrastructures, they are ten times better than those in the UK because they are new, where are your industries? and how do you want to have a good economy without having an industrial sector, of any kind?

Yes, you can see the infrastructures in Portugal and Spain. Portugal has (if I'm not wrong) one of the biggest % of highroad per total area (if not the biggest of the EU). Yes, Portugal/Spain (thanks to Socialist governments) were able to put up some of the best Social Security and, specially, some of the best Health Social Systems in the world only in 3 decades.

But, besides that... Where's the agriculture/fishing/primary sector? Why was it destroyed in the late 80's/early 90's? Where's the money hidden in private banks that I (a tax payer) had to pay when a huge hole was discovered?
Where's the industrial clusters for industrial niches (which would be the best for periferic economies like portuguese's)? Why does Portugal still have the 3rd worst discrepancies in quality of life in all Europe? Why does the minimum salary still is €475, when in Spain is about €800 (if I'm not wrong), when even in Greece is - or was! - about €850 and in France and Germany it easily overcomes €1200?

Where's the practical result of the rivers of money tfrom the UE hat entered in Portugal since 1986? Where's that?

 

[Aygo]

Spain is in a bad position too, surely? 20% unemployment, 45% youth unemployment? Property bubble as bad as Ireland's, or so I have read. I am not sure if I am going to take lectures on financial management from Spain. As for Portugal, when I visited Lisbon for a conference a few years ago and chatted to some locals, they complained bitterly about the political corruption there (also a problem in Ireland, granted).

Spain always had a critical problem with unemployment for very long, but they reached 20% very recently, unfortunately. I really don't know how can a developped country survive with 1 in 5 people unemployed.

In fact, unfortunately, the reports confirm that Portugal is the worst european country in terms of corruption, only surpassed by Italy. For me, it's a chronical and cultural issue that even comes from the monarchy times. I doubt that we'll be able to erase this kind of behaviours in the near future.

 

[financeguy]

Try getting your facts right before passing comment. There are motorways linking Dublin with all the major cities - M1, M2, M4, M6, M7, M9 as well as M50 and bits of the M11 as well as the mostly complete M18 between Galway and Limerick. The fact you don't know this somewhat negates the rest of your post.

I think Marien raises some good points regarding asking questions as to where the money was spent but the tone of her post kind of puts me off responding to them.

 

[financeguy]

Spain always had a critical problem with unemployment for very long, but they reached 20% very recently, unfortunately. I really don't know how can a developped country survive with 1 in 5 people unemployed.

In fact, unfortunately, the reports confirm that Portugal is the worst european country in terms of corruption, only surpassed by Italy. For me, it's a chronical and cultural issue that even comes from the monarchy times. I doubt that we'll be able to erase this kind of behaviours in the near future.

Yes, I have read some of those reports too. The odd thing about those surveys from an Irish perspective is that Ireland usually ranks as one of the less corrupt countries, or middle of the table, and yet anyone who lives here and understands how the system works knows that Ireland is actually quite corrupt, though perhaps in less obvious ways that Portugal or Italy. This is why I think that, although I disagree with some elements of her post, Marien's questions about where all the money went merit consideration.

 

[financeguy]

The fact is that the Irish economy is relatively healthy in a European context with modest growth and trade in line with other peripheral countries. it is the banks alone who are causing Ireland's hardship, the actions of a few, gambling with the funds provided by other investors, losing very badly and expecting the Irish taxpayer to bail them out so their investors won't take the ball away and stop playing the game. The Irish people need to tell the investors and "senior stakeholders" that they have lost their bet and to fu*k off and let us get on with rebuilding our domestic economy, servicing the sovergn debt instead of propping up private institutions at the behest of our corrupt and innefectual government. Default on the bank debt is the only option.

Agreed!

 

[financeguy]

Some interesting historical information about our European leaders:

A prosecutor asked a court today to convict the governor of the Bank of France, Jean-Claude Trichet, who is on trial on charges related to a decade-old banking scandal. The outcome could damage his bid to head the European Central Bank. The prosecutor, Jean-Pierre Bernard, recommended that Mr. Trichet receive a 10-month suspended prison sentence. Mr. Trichet has denied any wrongdoing. Mr. Trichet, 60, who is charged with spreading false information and complicity in reporting false accounts at Crédit Lyonnais, is among nine people on trial in connection with the scandal.
February 6, 2003

Conviction Urged for Bank of France Chief - New York Times

Flaws in the system?

Critics say the French justice system is often politically motivated and far too slow to bring cases to trial. Mr Trichet, they say, is a case in point.
Last May, the public prosecutor recommended charges against Mr Trichet be dropped.
But he was overruled by the investigating magistrate, Philippe Courroye.
That he was concerned is not disputed.
He sent several warning letters to the then finance minister Michel Sapin.
But his lawyers say Mr Trichet was doing exactly what was required of him as a public servant.

BBC NEWS | Business | French business on trial

 

[financeguy]

A great paper from the Research in Business and Economics Journal:

http://www.aabri.com/manuscripts/09351.pdf

Look at Tables 4 and 5, Taylors Rule versus ECB rate and see just how unsuitable the rate was for Ireland and Spain.

As one can see, the rate set by the ECB was below that suggested by Taylor’s rule for the entire period for both Ireland and Spain, sometimes considerably below the recommended level. For France, the results are mixed with the ECB rate a little too high at the beginning and end of the period and about the same during the middle of the period. The rate is highly correlated to that suggested for Germany, with the ECB rate being slightly higher for much of the period. Thus, it appears that the ECB set a rate that was appropriate for the large economies of France and Germany but much too low for the smaller economies of Ireland and Spain.

Bottom line is the Irish (and other peripherals) should have done more to control growth and avert bubbles, but the interest rate is the single the most important factor, over-riding all others.

A crash was always inevitable once we joined the Eurozone.

 

[Aygo]

A great paper from the Research in Business and Economics Journal:

http://www.aabri.com/manuscripts/09351.pdf

Look at Tables 4 and 5, Taylors Rule versus ECB rate and see just how unsuitable the rate was for Ireland and Spain.



Bottom line is the Irish (and other peripherals) should have done more to control growth and avert bubbles, but the interest rate is the single the most important factor, over-riding all others.

A crash was always inevitable once we joined the Eurozone.

I read that Ireland's debt interest reached 9,3% (that's insane!), even after IMF and new (!) austerity policies. Portugal reached 7,4% and Spain overcame the 5% mark.
Where is this going to end?

What will the excuse be tomorrow for a new increase? My country is the next victim and my life is going to change (for worse) drastically, and I start to see all this soap opera as laughable!...

 

[Rachel D.]

It's simply a question of the sum of the parts.

Sure, even if U2 gave Ireland every cent they have in the bank it would not be enough.

BUT

Let's face it, you add up all the tax avoiders out there and it adds up to be a lot of money. Say U2 saves 10 million Euros a year by moving U2 Inc to the Netherlands. 10 million Euros is peanuts compared to the 80 billion Euros that Ireland is going to borrow from the IMF and the EU. But 10 million Euros pays a lot of teachers, a lot of nurses, might even build a bridge. None of which can be done otherwise.

It all adds up.

I recall reading about Greece that they only collect about half of the taxes that they should be because so many people are operating in the black market economy. It may not cure the problem, but boy, it sure would help.

U2 was for years Ireland's biggest export. If that is the case - it shows you how sad Ireland's economy is, but it also shows you how important they are.

So are U2 supposed to set an example by letting themselves be taxed when they could easily avoid it? The only example that would set is that they're a bunch of morons being taken to the cleaners and who are bad at business. They're an organization and they have to look out for themselves and their employees.

 

[gvox]

Someone said a long time ago here that GVOX creates and believes his own reality and he's certainly done nothing in the interim to show otherwise.....

Really? Just shut the hell up man, or at least have your (once again) unsubstantiated last words without resorting to stupidity like this.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

i'd just like to remind everyone in the thread that name calling, telling each other to shut up, etc. is against the rules. if you can't discuss this subject without resorting to these tactics then perhaps it's best to not post in here.

 

[Marien]

First of all I would like to say that I'm sorry you found the tone of my posts offensive, it wasn't my intention at all.

I just wanted to say the truth, and the thruth from my point of view, of course, is that things don't happen all of a sudden, there's been a mismanagement in Ireland for years, and I think it has been even bigger than in other European countries which are also in danger because of that, that I find totally unacceptable that so little has been made there with the European money and that I don't find it realistic to blame the other countries for your problems, there are a few people in your country who are more than responsible of this, people who are getting richer even while we are discussing this and it seems as if they have nothing to do with this, turn to them.

I know you were living a dream, after a history full of tragedies Ireland had one of the highest incomes per capital in the continent, it is easy to want to remain in the bubble, but you knew what it was before this or you should have known. Now you have to start to work and put the basis of a solid economic system, you are a very creative people and next time you'll know that what comes easily goes easily. (Of course, this is true not only for Ireland, but it is Ireland what we are talking about in this thread)

As I've said before, I was never in favour of the European Community being anything more than a free trade arrangement. It was presented as such when we first joined but unfortunately our political classes were bribed into, and subsequently bribed the electorate into, signing up to all the treaties the Eurofederalists came up with. So I'm not getting into a ideological debate with you about taxes as I fundamentally ideologically disagree with Brussels having any remit over taxation affairs of member countries of the EU.

All I can say is that nothing was hidden regarding the corporation tax rate, the Irish negotiators said they wanted to hold onto it in various negotations for all the Treaties we have signed up to and this was agreed to by our European partners. If it was such a big issue, they should have just chucked us out of the EU (personally, I really wish they had). Too late to complain now.

One thing I would say, is that at least in Ireland, we had referenda to agree each step of the process. I understand that your governments just sign you up to any treaty they like and do not consult the people. Some continentals have an odd understanding of democracy, as we've seen from the history of the twentieth century.

This is why I admire the British system - they are a true parliamentary democracy. They have never sold out to the European federalists.

Please, read this part of my yesterday post:

"Finally about the taxes, I don't mind if you had them or not before getting into the European Union, the fact is that you attracted the multinationals because the taxes were very low or didn't exist and nobody talked about the countries and the employees they were leaving behind, you thought it was ok because it was good for your country, but then a new tax was created for the Irish corporations (and sometimes I think it was tailor-made for U2) and when U2 moved their business, you started to cry about it, well, you can't play a double game, if it is fair, legal and good when it is to your benefit, then it is fair, legal and good when it is not, the contrary is pure hypocrisy."

As you can see I'm not talking about taxes in relation with the EU, I'm talking about it in relation with all the recrimination towards U2 for moving their business, and frankly, I have to repeat that I find all the whining, all the protests and all the legal obstacles they've found for everything in Ireland since then quite hypocrital having the tax system you have.


This has nothing to do with the rest, but I find strange such an admiration for the British parliamentary system, until 2 years ago (maybe 3, I'm not sure) many of the members of the House of Lords were appointed directly by the Queen, and the assemblies in Scotland and Northern Ireland have a long history of suspensions. I admire the fact that you had referenda for every step your country took in relation with the European Union though.

 

[Marien]

Try getting your facts right before passing comment. There are motorways linking Dublin with all the major cities - M1, M2, M4, M6, M7, M8, M9, the M50 and bits of the M11 as well as the mostly complete M18 between Galway and Limerick. The fact you don't know this somewhat negates the rest of your post which spouts further generalizations and mis-truths about the Irish economy.

The fact is that the Irish economy is relatively healthy in a European context with modest growth and trade in line with other peripheral countries. it is the banks alone who are causing Ireland's hardship, the actions of a few, gambling with the funds provided by other investors, losing very badly and expecting the Irish taxpayer to bail them out so their investors won't take the ball away and stop playing the game. The Irish people need to tell the investors and "senior stakeholders" that they have lost their bet and to fu*k off and let us get on with rebuilding our domestic economy, servicing the sovergn debt instead of propping up private institutions at the behest of our corrupt and innefectual government. Default on the bank debt is the only option.

Maybe I've messed up the letters, I only live in Ireland about 4 months a year, but I'm talking about good, modern motorways, I know perfectly well how long it takes from Dublin to Galway and how bad this can be for the developing of the Galway area, not to talk about Mayo, I was talking about roads, but it could be railways, the fact I wanted to point is that for years there's been a bad management of the structural founds from the EU and that this has made your economy more fragile because you haven't developed an industrial sector, so you are mostly depending on foreign companies that will surely abandon Ireland when they find a better shelter, other countries have had a really bad management of these founds, Portugal and Spain, but at least good infrastructures have been built, there's a legacy there you can see, and I repeat, they aren't an example of good management.

Apart from this above, I think I agree with most of what you are saying, I think that we must make the real culprits pay for this, I said before that it must be a very good joke to have caused all of this to get rich and getting the others to pay for their rescue while they still get richer and richer with the interests of our mortages, the only thing is that I'm in the side of those who pay and I don't feel the fun.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

... yes?

 

[Marien]

Spain always had a critical problem with unemployment for very long, but they reached 20% very recently, unfortunately. I really don't know how can a developped country survive with 1 in 5 people unemployed.

In fact, unfortunately, the reports confirm that Portugal is the worst european country in terms of corruption, only surpassed by Italy. For me, it's a chronical and cultural issue that even comes from the monarchy times. I doubt that we'll be able to erase this kind of behaviours in the near future.

I tell you what I think, I think it is false that Spain has a 20% of unemployment, I spend about 6-8 months a year in Spain and when I came back last September I expected to see a really difficult situation, but it's not so, I think that about 8% of labour are working without getting the National Health Insurance, so they report to be unemployed and they can continue using the system without paying, they may be also accepting lower sallaries, it is a big deal for emplyers who are getting cheap labour, saving lots of Euros and having employees who can't defend their rights, there is a great amount of corruption and people, especially inmigrants are accepting these conditions because they have to pay the astronomical mortages the signed a few years ago, I work with lots of people, and I don't know but a few unemployed, but there are quite a few that have a "creative" new way of working, of course the government is doing nothing about it. I'm not saying there isn't unemployment in Spain, but not to the level official figures show, if it were so high we'd be about a revolution.

 

[Salome]

A great paper from the Research in Business and Economics Journal:

http://www.aabri.com/manuscripts/09351.pdf

Look at Tables 4 and 5, Taylors Rule versus ECB rate and see just how unsuitable the rate was for Ireland and Spain.



Bottom line is the Irish (and other peripherals) should have done more to control growth and avert bubbles, but the interest rate is the single the most important factor, over-riding all others.

A crash was always inevitable once we joined the Eurozone.

you can repeat it's all about interest rate another thousand times but I still don't see any logic in it

what a paper on housing bubbles really has to do with anything is also not really clear to me

bottom line is that Ireland invested everything in its financial market and when it collapsed there was nothing left

 

[U2387]

you can repeat it's all about interest rate another thousand times but I still don't see any logic in it

what a paper on housing bubbles really has to do with anything is also not really clear to me

bottom line is that Ireland invested everything in its financial market and when it collapsed there was nothing left

Sure, but the financial market was largely fueled by real estate related assets backed securities.

And in real estate, the interest rate is everything as it revolves around financing and borrowing.

And FinanceGuy brings up the key point here. Without interest rates so low and so out of line with what is generally accepted given economic circumstances(Taylor rule), it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the bubble would've been given so much fuel.

It is hard to see this speculative bubble emerging without the historic, out of line interest rates.

 

[U2387]

Really? Just shut the hell up man, or at least have your (once again) unsubstantiated last words without resorting to stupidity like this.

Again with the personal stuff instead of addressing any of the FACTS I posted.

Now that GVOX has spoken, I will shut the hell up, because I'm really worried about him and his bullying

 

[financeguy]

you can repeat it's all about interest rate another thousand times but I still don't see any logic in it

what a paper on housing bubbles really has to do with anything is also not really clear to me

Basically, what U2387 already said. Ireland had a massive property bubble, in fact this is the key problem. Other countries in the West which had less severe property bubbles, such as the UK or US, are recovering much more quickly from the recession. And part of the reason for this is that they can set their own interest rates.

bottom line is that Ireland invested everything in its financial market and when it collapsed there was nothing left

Again, as U2387 already indicated, the reason that the sizes of domestic Irish bank balance sheets became too big is because of over-investment in property. If you are referring to the IFSC, that operation is in its own little world and more or less takes care of itself. In fact, as I understand it, most IFSC operations are doing ok.

 

[Salome]

Sure, but the financial market was largely fueled by real estate related assets backed securities.

And in real estate, the interest rate is everything as it revolves around financing and borrowing.

And FinanceGuy brings up the key point here. Without interest rates so low and so out of line with what is generally accepted given economic circumstances(Taylor rule), it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the bubble would've been given so much fuel.

It is hard to see this speculative bubble emerging without the historic, out of line interest rates.

I don't think it's highly unlikely at all
the bubble existed because of the false pretense that property can only increase in value
interest rates became an issue after the burst

I also don't fully agree the financial sector was based around mortgage related products in Europe
credit default swaps and non asset backed securities played a huge role

the influence of the interest rate was minor compared to incredibly poor management, poor control & governance and greed
lots of greed

 

[U2387]

I don't think it's highly unlikely at all
the bubble existed because of the false pretense that property can only increase in value
interest rates became an issue after the burst

I also don't fully agree the financial sector was based around mortgage related products in Europe
credit default swaps and non asset backed securities played a huge role

the influence of the interest rate was minor compared to incredibly poor management, poor control & governance and greed
lots of greed

Absolutely agreed regarding the false pretenses people operated under, poor control and greed, etc.

Absolutely agreed regarding CD swaps and non assets backed securities.

All of that is indeed true.

All I am saying is that the pretense would have been more likely to remain just that, a pretense and not an action, if it wasn't for the unjustifiably easy money that fueled it all.'

Sure, a lot of people would love to travel all over the world in a day, but could this happen without the invention of the airplane?

A lot of people are greedy/twisted enough to rob banks, but would they do so without a get away driver?

See where I am going?

 

[financeguy]

I don't think it's highly unlikely at all
the bubble existed because of the false pretense that property can only increase in value

It doesn't matter what false pretense exists about property only ever increasing in value. If the interest rates had been increased during the 2001-2006 period, then property prices would not have kept rising, simple as that.

The Irish have always been obsessed with land and property ownership to an unhealthy degree, possibly because of our history, but property price increases in the early 1990s, for example, were very modest, barely in line with inflation. Why was that, I wonder? It couldn't have been because back then the Irish Central Bank could set its own interest rates to suit the requirements of the economy, by any chance?

the influence of the interest rate was minor compared to incredibly poor management, poor control & governance and greed lots of greed

All of these issues are a factor, but greed is part of human psychology. One cannot seriously argue that people suddenly became massively more greedy during the 2000-2007 period.

The idea that greed can be abolished by regulation and governance is a romantic conceit. The best we can hope for is to better control bubbles when they develop. On that score, the regulatory authorities failed during the 2000-2007 period.

 

[financeguy]

“Good morning Mr. van Rompuy, you’ve been in office for one year, and in that time the whole edifice is beginning to crumble, there’s chaos, the money’s running out, I should thank you – you should perhaps be the pinup boy of the euroskeptic movement. But just look around this chamber this morning, look at these faces, look at the fear, look at the anger. Poor Barroso here looks like he’s seen a ghost. They’re beginning to understand that the game is up. And yet in their desperation to preserve their dream, they want to remove any remaining traces of democracy from the system. And it’s pretty clear that none of you have learned anything. When you yourself Mr. van Rompuy say that the euro has brought us stability, I supposed I could applaud you for having a sense of humor, but isn’t this really just the bunker [or banker?] mentality.

Your fanaticism is out in the open. You talk about the fact that it was a lie to believe that the nation state could exist in the 21st century globalized world. Well, that may be true in the case of Belgium who haven’t had a government for 6 months, but for the rest of us, right across every member state in this union, increasingly people are saying, “We don’t want that flag, we don’t want the anthem, we don’t want this political class, we want the whole thing consigned to the dustbin of history.”

We had the Greek tragedy earlier on this year, and now we have the situation in Ireland. I know that the stupidity and greed of Irish politicians has a lot to do with this: they should never, ever have joined the euro. They suffered with low interest rates, a false boom and a massive bust. But look at your response to them: what they are being told as their government is collapsing is that it would be inappropriate for them to have a general election. In fact commissioner Rehn here said they had to agree to a budget first before they are allowed to have a general election. Just who the hell do you think you people are?

You are very, very dangerous people indeed: your obsession with creating this European state means that you are happy to destroy democracy, you appear to be happy with millions and millions of people to be unemployed and to be poor. Untold millions will suffer so that your euro dream can continue. Well it won’t work, cause its Portugal next with their debt levels of 325% of GDP they are the next ones on the list, and after that I suspect it will be Spain, and the bailout for Spain will be 7 times the size of Ireland, and at that moment all the bailout money will is gone – there won’t be any more. But it’s even more serious than economics, because if you rob people of their identity, if you rob them of their democracy, then all they are left with is nationalism and violence. I can only hope and pray that the euro project is destroyed by the markets before that really happens.”

YouTube - 'The Euro Game Is Up! Who the hell do you think you are?' - Nigel Farage MEP

 

[gvox]

Again with the personal stuff instead of addressing any of the FACTS I posted.

Let me get this straight: you pretty much call me stupid, crazy, delusional etc etc with the personal attacks, try to gather people around your insulting claim that I live in an alternate reality dream world, and then when I tell you to shut your trap you call THAT the beginning of the personal stuff?

Absolutely ridiculous. Have your "last word", if you must. And I'm pretty sure you must.

 

[U2387]

I've continued to discuss real issues in this thread.

And you started this personal tone from the very beginning, with the posting of that irony meter.

You know damn well the difference between comments on points made or posting history and personal attacks. I do the former, you do the latter. As is evidenced by the pictures you post responding to discussion of issues.

We've been over all of this before.

I may have a reputation for getting a little too heated at times(point well taken) but you have a longstanding reputation as a condescending, arrogant bully.

Big difference.

From now on, how about I don't respond to your posts, and you don't respond to mine?

How's that sound?

Because last time, my parting words to you were something along the lines of "no one wants to read our stupid arguments, and I can make a pretty reasonable on screen diagnosis that you are not a bad guy."

And the next time you feel fit to respond to me, I get the irony meter.

So don't start playing with the devil(personal attacks) and complain when it gets hot.

Thats all.

Goodbye.

Wish you the best!

**versus "shut the hell up, man" in case anyone was keeping track of how different posters try and end stupid, crazy, too long debates that no one else wants to read.**

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

i'd just like to remind everyone in the thread that name calling, telling each other to shut up, etc. is against the rules. if you can't discuss this subject without resorting to these tactics then perhaps it's best to not post in here.

reiterating what i've said already. if you guys can discuss things in here civilly that's fine, but coming back just to have the last word and still be snippy is not acceptable.

i'm not going to say this again.