Ireland Bankrupt - Should U2 Move back to Dublin to help out

[Aygo]

I tell you what I think, I think it is false that Spain has a 20% of unemployment, I spend about 6-8 months a year in Spain and when I came back last September I expected to see a really difficult situation, but it's not so, I think that about 8% of labour are working without getting the National Health Insurance, so they report to be unemployed and they can continue using the system without paying, they may be also accepting lower sallaries, it is a big deal for emplyers who are getting cheap labour, saving lots of Euros and having employees who can't defend their rights, there is a great amount of corruption and people, especially inmigrants are accepting these conditions because they have to pay the astronomical mortages the signed a few years ago, I work with lots of people, and I don't know but a few unemployed, but there are quite a few that have a "creative" new way of working, of course the government is doing nothing about it. I'm not saying there isn't unemployment in Spain, but not to the level official figures show, if it were so high we'd be about a revolution.

Well, I have many many friends from Spain, I often go to Spain for years and I can confirm that Spain has a chronical problem of unemployment (unlike Portugal: 11% now, 5% in the late 1990's). All these people confirm me, depending on the region, that it's pretty accurate to affirm that 1 in 5 people is unemployed in Spain. If Spain always had more than 10% of unemployment (I remember those numbers already being around 15% before the crisis), why wouldn't it reach 20%, specially when Spain had the explosion of a financial bubble like Ireland too? Why would those numbers be fake, when many people confirm it (even their Government, the EU and the OECD reports)?

Plus, maybe this idea is hard to accept across the ocean, but for us, Europeans, health is not a business and, since it's a vital issue for any human being, it's the responsability of any member that composes the State. So, we believe that health should be free (should... in Portugal, for example, the legislations contours the Constitution and imposes unconstitutional laws that make patients pay an appointment or a surgery... something that we already pay in taxes). That's why we pay taxes: to guarantee that no one (without exception) will be treated differently in a public hospital depending on its annual/monthly income, to guarantee that everyone can have access to something that is basic need for life... for free (in theory).
Since Ireland's Government is imposing politics that will bring even more decrease in quality of life, that's another reason for unemployees not needing to pay it.

 

[financeguy]

Since Ireland's Government is imposing politics that will bring even more decrease in quality of life, that's another reason for unemployees not needing to pay it.

Yep. And regarding the bank debts that the IMF are trying to enforce at a punitive rate of interest, there is no acceptable rate of interest on these gambling debts, because the Irish people should never, under any circumstances, obligate themselves to pay the private banks' collective debt - even at zero interest.

In other words, not even the principal of this debt should ever be paid by the Irish people. If the bond holders want to collect the bank debt, let them collect it from the banks - not the Irish people.

If our government does not realise this, then they should be evicted from office, using force if necessary.

If the ECB continues to fail to fulfill its legally required mandate to act as lender of last resort and continues to act as Germany's bitch, then, similarly, they should be removed.

We have had revolutions before, as have many other countries, and we are quite happy to remove ourselves from the Eurozone and default on our debts to give our children some kind of future.

Rumours has it there are some Rothschilds guys at our side of the table, so hopefully the real poker players have arrived and the Irish government will grow some cojones.

 

[doctorwho]

From the perspective of an European... Although I totally understand U2's side, I can understand as well why U2 are so often called hypocrites. So, U2 are one of the most important enterprises in Ireland and they prefer not to contribute to their country's State like any other person/enterprise... Prefering to run away to a country where they know they'll be able to escape from certain taxes... Specially after knowing well that the U2-machine is raises so much money?

That isn't quite true. U2 members do pay taxes in Ireland. They also pay taxes wherever they play. In the U.S., they must pay a tax for all revenue they earn in every city (city tax, state tax, federal tax and other fees). So when we hear about a concert grossing million of $$, one must take out costs for touring, paying staff, paying for the venue and taxes. Little wonder concert ticket prices have soared.

The same is true in Ireland. They have to pay taxes for touring there and other items (homes, businesses, etc.). I am not familiar with all of their artistic license - some of it is created in Ireland and arguably could be taxed. Some of it may be secured in the Netherlands, where taxes are less, but still exist.

If you had a chance to have your income at a lower tax rate, wouldn't you do it? So I don't give U2 any crap about this issue. We are not fully familiar with their incomes or taxes and I know they have a lot of taxes to pay.

But even if every single cent they made was taxed and all of that tax went to Ireland, it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the debt. Ireland is in the same situation facing the U.S. and other European countries. We lived it up 5 years ago and now the bill has to be paid. Economies go up and down - booms become busts, busts become booms. I'm sure in another 5 years, this too will pass. But having U2 pay more in Irish tax won't make a difference.

 

[U2387]

That isn't quite true. U2 members do pay taxes in Ireland. They also pay taxes wherever they play. In the U.S., they must pay a tax for all revenue they earn in every city (city tax, state tax, federal tax and other fees). So when we hear about a concert grossing million of $$, one must take out costs for touring, paying staff, paying for the venue and taxes. Little wonder concert ticket prices have soared.

The same is true in Ireland. They have to pay taxes for touring there and other items (homes, businesses, etc.). I am not familiar with all of their artistic license - some of it is created in Ireland and arguably could be taxed. Some of it may be secured in the Netherlands, where taxes are less, but still exist.

If you had a chance to have your income at a lower tax rate, wouldn't you do it? So I don't give U2 any crap about this issue. We are not fully familiar with their incomes or taxes and I know they have a lot of taxes to pay.

But even if every single cent they made was taxed and all of that tax went to Ireland, it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the debt. Ireland is in the same situation facing the U.S. and other European countries. We lived it up 5 years ago and now the bill has to be paid. Economies go up and down - booms become busts, busts become booms. I'm sure in another 5 years, this too will pass. But having U2 pay more in Irish tax won't make a difference.

And DoctorWho sums the entire thing up, yet again!

Great post

 

[Salome]

Absolutely agreed regarding the false pretenses people operated under, poor control and greed, etc.

Absolutely agreed regarding CD swaps and non assets backed securities.

All of that is indeed true.

All I am saying is that the pretense would have been more likely to remain just that, a pretense and not an action, if it wasn't for the unjustifiably easy money that fueled it all.'

Sure, a lot of people would love to travel all over the world in a day, but could this happen without the invention of the airplane?

A lot of people are greedy/twisted enough to rob banks, but would they do so without a get away driver?

See where I am going?

while I see where you're going I haven't found any evidence on it

I had to study the collapse of both Icesave and ABN Amro this year
low interest was never mentioned

we studied the financial crisis and how it came about
low interest was barely mentioned

of course with higher interest rates the property bubble would have been smaller in size, but there simply is no evidence on this substantially limiting the financial crisis
and that's even neglecting the effect higher interest rates would have had elsewhere on the economy

as far as I can tell unless you're proposing the interest rate should have been at a level where it would have prevented anyone on avarage income to be able to buy any property it would not have the desired effect of substantially limiting the property bubble

and even then you're overestimating the weight mortgages carried in the financial crisis

 

[gvox]

You know damn well the difference between comments on points made or posting history and personal attacks. I do the former, you do the latter.

I may have a reputation for getting a little too heated at times(point well taken) but you have a longstanding reputation as a condescending, arrogant bully.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the mods who have twice told both of us to cool off, I'm simply going to point out that you have both those claims entirely backward.

I post on points, whereas your posts are peppered with personal attacks, jibes, and insults to others' intelligence.

I have a reputation for getting heated (hence, shut up) - but for God's sake man take a look at yourself (or at least your posts) and see just how much of of condescending jerk you are pretty much 99% of the time. You can't even post about a setlist without filling up page after page and belittling people either overtly or with ad hominem attacks that prove nothing. You literally take over entire pages! I don't even bother with half the stuff, it's just so repetitive and silly it's not even worth it.

I'm not here saying this to have the last word, but you keep playing the "Your History On Interference" card on me when it's kindof funny because frankly I think my style has improved and matured greatly over the years. Trust me, if it didn't, I would have been gone a long time ago. Maybe yours will after a few, and maybe growing a bit older will play a role for you also. But as it is right now? You are the classic Internet Bully around here. Even if someone tries to walk away, you cat call and taunt and basically pull the equivalent of "see guys? see? this person's history blah blah etc etc". You're a bully, whether you want to believe it or not.

Just read through this thread again - who started calling who names, belittling, etc? I posted the irony meter because you were being so ironic! Read your statements that I quoted, you were! So have a laugh at yourself for crissakes!

I don't even know why I'm bothering to type all this to you. Maybe it's because I sense you're probably here for the long haul, and in some way we're at some point going to have to find a way to get along. But as it is right now that's going to be fairly impossible with your arrogance. I'd like to think I mellowed out a fair bit and one of the things that did it for me (apart from a good break) was a few other posters here who I respect and some who I've actually met, hung out with at U2 shows etc just outright telling me "man, you're probably a good guy, but you do act like such a jerk online sometimes". Maybe I still do to an extent. And maybe you don't respect my opinion, but don't say someone didn't at least try to tell you.

Anyways, this has gone so far off track, even the discussion on the state of Ireland's economy is more FYM fodder than EYKIW. Maybe this is another one for the dustbin.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the mods who have twice told both of us to cool off

you really should've gone with your first instinct here. i've warned several of you repeatedly to stop with the name-calling, stop with the pointless bickering and refusing to just back down from an argument and stop insisting on having the last word. this stuff is against the rules and can lead to a suspension.

this thread is done.