Bono Partners With Monsanto?

[mama cass]

Nick66, some of us are just thinking out loud for gods sakes and trying to work out the logical reasoning in our own heads about this whole thing

to me it doesn't make sense, for instance, re. these conditions for securing access to land for these corporations, as well as seed control - the implications are very far reaching and potentially disastrous in terms of human rights - i honestly cannot see the logical reasoning in it at all...

please enlighten us then, what exactly IS Bono's agenda you mention? i would love to know! because if it's about "feeding Africa", then pushing the local rural communities off their land may not be the best way to do it...

 

[mama cass]

and don't get me started on Bill Gates lol

eta, and are you kidding me? i absolutely refuse to "get used to it" - why should i? it is at the opposite end of the spectrum of everything i believe in from a political/social/humanitarian perspective (i also have A LOT of respect for people like Monbiot - i've always been inspired by his writings and activism, not to mention Naomi Klein, John Pilger, Noam Chomski, etc. - i value their opinions over a bunch of corporate tossers quite frankly! and i also have a degree in languages/politics/international relations, so i'm really big into all this sh!t and do have a vague idea of what i'm talking about lol)

this sums it up for me: "whenever you are faced with a choice between liberty and security, choose liberty. Otherwise you will end up with neither" - Monbiot, inspired by Benjamin Franklin

 

[Nick66]

Well, of course you're entitled to your own beliefs on the best way to alleviate famine in Africa and develop its abundant natural resources. As is Bono. I'm merely pointing out that I don't believe Bono's position on Monsanto is based on ignorance of the facts. Much to the contrary actually. There just seems to be this attitude among some here that Bono couldn't possibly want anything to do with Monsanto if only he knew what they did! Perhaps because some are having trouble reconciling how someone they admire so much could be involved with a company they so despise. So it's all "He must just be misinformed, let's start a Facebook page and educate him, then he'll see the light"(i.e. agree with us). If you want to say "Bono sucks for his Monsanto connection", fair enough. The only thing I have a problem with is the notion that Bono somehow doesn't understand the issues. If he's willing to take all this criticism for it, he clearly does, and feels strongly enough to ignore the critics.

I'm not saying I agree with Bono, or what Monsanto is doing, and you have some good points. And I'm not saying you have to "get used to" Monsanto or what they are doing in Africa. If you want to fight them, fight them. Better yet, do something yourself to help Africans develop their crops. But what you do have to get used to is that Bono doesn't agree with you, whether you like it or not.

 

[mama cass]

Well, of course you're entitled to your own beliefs on the best way to alleviate famine in Africa and develop its abundant natural resources. As is Bono. I'm merely pointing out that I don't believe Bono's position on Monsanto is based on ignorance of the facts. Much to the contrary actually. There just seems to be this attitude among some here that Bono couldn't possibly want anything to do with Monsanto if only he knew what they did! Perhaps because some are having trouble reconciling how someone they admire so much could be involved with a company they so despise. So it's all "He must just be misinformed, let's start a Facebook page and educate him, then he'll see the light"(i.e. agree with us). If you want to say "Bono sucks for his Monsanto connection", fair enough. The only thing I have a problem with is the notion that Bono somehow doesn't understand the issues. If he's willing to take all this criticism for it, he clearly does, and feels strongly enough to ignore the critics.

I'm not saying I agree with Bono, or what Monsanto is doing, and you have some good points. And I'm not saying you have to "get used to" Monsanto or what they are doing in Africa. If you want to fight them, fight them. Better yet, do something yourself to help Africans develop their crops. But what you do have to get used to is that Bono doesn't agree with you, whether you like it or not.

i don't have to get used to anything nick - why would i care whether B-man agrees with me or not? he's clearly entitled to his own opinions and potential fuck-ups

but anyway, we have no way of knowing whether he does or doesn't understand the issues - maybe he does, maybe he doesn't? maybe it's not even in his hands? who knows?

 

[Nick66]

i don't have to get used to anything nick - why would i care whether B-man agrees with me or not? he's clearly entitled to his own opinions and potential fuck-ups

Well, fair enough. Then don't get used to it and spend your time trying to convince him to change his mind.

but anyway, we have no way of knowing whether he does or doesn't understand the issues - maybe he does, maybe he doesn't?

Um, OK. I'm sure you have access to resources he doesn't. He's only spent the past 20 years of his life working on this.

 

[mama cass]

Um, OK. I'm sure you have access to resources he doesn't. He's only spent the past 20 years of his life working on this.

in that case if he's looked at every option, i would love to know why he's coming at the issue from such a corporate perspective... i think there are a lot of questions that need answering...

also, re. ignoring the critics - as he says himself in his song, i think he needs to chose his "enemies" wisely... when it's people like Monbiot who are starting to call him out, it might be time to sit up and reassess, just my opinion...

 

[mama cass]

Well, of course you're entitled to your own beliefs on the best way to alleviate famine in Africa and develop its abundant natural resources

the thing is, it's best when things happen at grassroots level, workable solutions chosen and implemented by the people, rather than imposed from the top downwards (as would be the case for this G8 Alliance)... Africa is dynamic, it's changing, i feel it's wrong to see the continent as a new emerging market for western interests to exploit with their imperialistic neoliberal approach, their smash and grab ideals and conditional deals, because we all know how that always ends... small and medium sized enterprises on a human scale have been proven to be more efficient, not to mention fairer... does no-one remember Nestle and the whole formula milk scandal in Africa, for instance?? these corporations only have their own interests at heart...

 

[jeevey]

Who's saying we need to educate him? What I heard people saying, and what I said was, I HOPE he doesn't understand, because that might be preferable to the alternative. We're all aware of Bono's cred. As I said, all those people who really believe Bono is a nit wit aren't here.

 

[digitize]

I think that Bono is fond of what has happened to China over the past... well, since the Nixon/Mao meeting, but especially the past 15 years or so. China's economic rise as pulled hundreds of millions out of extreme poverty entirely because of greedy, selfish corporations. Now, has that resulted in horrible sweatshops? Absolutely. However, it's difficult for me (granted, from my comfortable American life) to disparage sweatshops too much when a) they tend to be a fundamental and temporary characteristic in industrializing economies and b) the alternative is terrible subsistence farming. That's not to say that they're good, because they're not; it's to say that they may not be the worst thing to happen to a country. Regardless, the rise of China is something that has the potential to (and I really hope it does) make China a developed country. I think that Bono sees that, and I think that that is what Bono would like to go after for Africa. A lot of greedy, selfish corporate investment in a region can be a good thing, in line with most economic theory. Must it be managed well? Sure, through responsible governance, and, probably, not too great an emphasis on natural resource extraction. But, in general, the greedy robber-baron corporations of the West can do good things, if entirely by accident.

I'm not knowledgeable enough on the issue to take sides on Monsanto in specific, so I won't.

 

[Nick66]

the thing is, it's best when things happen at grassroots level, workable solutions chosen and implemented by the people, rather than imposed from the top downwards (as would be the case for this G8 Alliance)... Africa is dynamic, it's changing, i feel it's wrong to see the continent as a new emerging market for western interests to exploit with their imperialistic neoliberal approach, their smash and grab ideals and conditional deals, because we all know how that always ends... small and medium sized enterprises on a human scale have been proven to be more efficient, not to mention fairer... does no-one remember Nestle and the whole formula milk scandal in Africa, for instance?? these corporations only have their own interests at heart...

I'm not arguing the substantive merits of Bono's approach, Monstanto's approach, or a grass roots, bottom up approach to Africa development. That's another, far more complex discussion. I imagine the answer for Africa is going to be a combination of, as you say, bottom up organising, government aid, international organisations and yes, corporate investment. And the corporate approach should not be dismissed merely because of the supposedly impure motivations of corporations...i.e., profit. Such motivations are a big part of why people in the West living today, of even modest means, enjoy the highest standard of living of anyone in history.

In any event, my point is that Bono is quite well aware of what Monsanto is all about and is apparently comfortable enough to have his name associated with it, as uncomfortable as it makes some of us feel.

 

[BVS]

and don't get me started on Bill Gates lol

eta, and are you kidding me? i absolutely refuse to "get used to it" - why should i? it is at the opposite end of the spectrum of everything i believe in from a political/social/humanitarian perspective (i also have A LOT of respect for people like Monbiot - i've always been inspired by his writings and activism, not to mention Naomi Klein, John Pilger, Noam Chomski, etc. - i value their opinions over a bunch of corporate tossers quite frankly! and i also have a degree in languages/politics/international relations, so i'm really big into all this sh!t and do have a vague idea of what i'm talking about lol)

this sums it up for me: "whenever you are faced with a choice between liberty and security, choose liberty. Otherwise you will end up with neither" - Monbiot, inspired by Benjamin Franklin

In a way I agree, yet in a way I'm asking, OK then what is the solution? We have a very large piece of this planet that is suffering due to environmental, political, and resource reasons. We've had grassroots support for decades and it's gone nowhere and it will take decades more to truly put in place the infrastructure they really need. So do they really have liberty now?

 

[mama cass]

the thing is, Africa is not a basket case, and it never has been and the West does not have a magic wand to wave - look at Live Aid for instance, it recently came to light that the corrupt government pretty much played the aid situation, siphoned off money to the army, while the population suffered - the aid facilitated the government's hold on power, and it wasn't the amazing solution everyone, myself included, believed it to be

i am not sure capitalism is the answer - B-man said it's "in the dock" but i'm not so sure - i reckon it might be in its death throes right now - as Imanuel Wallerstein says (another of my fave political thinkers) capitalism by its very nature is unsustainable and we might need to start considering ways of replacing it in the hope that it will be replaced with something better and not something sinister (look around you in the news, tales of espionage, government surveillance, it sounds far-fetched but it's creeping in as our reality - George Orwell wasn't far off the mark, and look at the police, all over the world, the Great British Bobby even, they're no longer acting like the friendly protectors of the people they once were, and that is worrying)...

plus capitalism constantly needs new markets to sustain itself, and Africa would be the perfect opportunity for it - but is the goal to serve capitalism or to find the right solution for the people? the important thing would be to listen to what the people want... it is interesting that very few African countries have signed up for the deal, and others are strongly opposed to it... re. the corporations, big is not necessarily better, and there are many other more ethical possibilities (look at Mohammed Yunis for instance with his Grameen bank and micro-loans - that was very effective)...

 

[mama cass]

also (and i promise i will shut it now lol), some African countries are experiencing really dynamic growth right now and i think that kind of growth should be nurtured and supported, not suppressed or cast aside by blanket outside interventionist approaches... i think diversity is the key, encouraging lots of solutions to encourage farmers and businesses at local level, not a global one size fits all approach...

 

[BVS]

also (and i promise i will shut it now lol), some African countries are experiencing really dynamic growth right now and i think that kind of growth should be nurtured and supported, not suppressed or cast aside by blanket outside interventionist approaches... i think diversity is the key, encouraging lots of solutions to encourage farmers and businesses at local level, not a global one size fits all approach...

Well 30mil isn't anywhere close to a blanket one size approach. I'm just wandering out loud if there's room for big and small solutions in this fight?

 

[jeevey]

The thing about Monsanto is that they are specifically against small solutions. They are about making money on their solutions. Refer again to the destruction of saved "unimproved" (ie not patented) seed in Africa.

 

[mama cass]

Well 30mil isn't anywhere close to a blanket one size approach. I'm just wandering out loud if there's room for big and small solutions in this fight?

by blanket approach i meant the New Alliance, BVS... monsanto are just one of the international firms involved in this (and i think it's 50 million not 30?? but they do stand to gain enormously nonetheless)

my worry would be the big guns pushing out the smaller operations, like in South America for instance...

from the article i posted a few pages back:

That African farming needs investment and support is indisputable. But does it need land grabbing? Yes, according to the deals these countries have signed. Mozambique, where local farmers have already been evicted from large tracts of land, is now obliged to write new laws promoting what its agreement calls “partnerships” of this kind(6). Cote d’Ivoire must “facilitate access to land for smallholder farmers and private enterprises”(7). Which, in practice, means evicting smallholder farmers for the benefit of private enterprises. Already French, Algerian, Swiss and Singaporean companies have lined up deals across 600,000 hectares or more of this country’s prime arable land. These deals, according to the development group GRAIN, “will displace tens of thousands of peasant rice farmers and destroy the livelihoods of thousands of small traders.”(8) Ethiopia, where land grabbing has been accompanied by appalling human rights abuses, must assist “agriculture investors (domestic and foreign; small, medium and larger enterprises) to … secure access to land”(9).

And how about seed grabbing? Yes, that too is essential to the well-being of Africa’s people. Mozambique is now obliged to “systematically cease distribution of free and unimproved seeds”, while drawing up new laws granting intellectual property rights in seeds which will “promote private sector investment”(10). Similar regulations must also be approved in Ghana, Tanzania and Cote d’Ivoire.

The countries which have joined the New Alliance will have to remove any market barriers which favour their own farmers. Where farmers comprise between 50 and 90% of the population(11), and where their livelihoods are dependent on the non-cash economy, these policies – which make perfect sense in the air-conditioned lecture rooms of the Chicago Business School – can be lethal.

 

[mama cass]

The thing about Monsanto is that they are specifically against small solutions. They are about making money on their solutions. Refer again to the destruction of saved "unimproved" (ie not patented) seed in Africa.

 

[*I*]

If its just 50 million I dont see why Bono doesnt just do it himself. I doubt he'd even feel it. There would then be no middleman to rape the African farmers and there would be plenty of food to go around.

Monstanto is going to ruin any kind of progression this venture could produce. Any kind of research done will clearly show Monsanto destroys farmers' lives and replaces good wholesome crops with genetically modified hollow versions of what it used to be. Nutrients take a back seat at Monsanto.

Also, if Monsanto GMO food is completely safe....

WHY DO THEY REFUSE TO SERVE THEIR OWN PRODUCE IN THEIR OWN MONSANTO EMPLOYEE CAFETERIAS?

 

[*I*]

Bono

do it yourself!

God damn

 

[mama cass]

the whole package with this New Alliance is $3 billion over 10 years, funded by private corporations, including Monsanto's $50 million

 

[Nick66]

Bono

do it yourself!

God damn

You should work for the UN.

 

[BVS]

If its just 50 million I dont see why Bono doesnt just do it himself. I doubt he'd even feel it.

Probably because reality would get in the way

 

[Nick66]

If its just 50 million I dont see why Bono doesnt just do it himself. I doubt he'd even feel it. There would then be no middleman to rape the African farmers and there would be plenty of food to go around.

Hmmm. Bono's net worth is estimated to be between 500-600 million. So 50 million would be around 10% of that, give or take.

So since you're so plugged into this issue and concerned, let's do this...why don't you match what you want Bono to give? Of course, no one expects you to come up with 50 million. But how much do you make in a year? Let's say you net 50,000 USD. Why don't you donate 10% of that, or 5,000, to African relief. I doubt you'd even feel it. Then write Bono asking him to match your generous donation as a %.

And don't forget the countless hours Bono has put into this over the 20 years. Find out how many, and dedicate the next 20 years of your life to it.

Oh, but first you have to know who to give the money to. After all, any charity organisation would quality as a "middle man", so you'd have to find a way to give it directly to the African farmers themselves. Perhaps you could find 50 of them and write them a check for 100 dollars each. Or maybe a bank transfer?

You passion for raped African farmers is truly touching. With you on our side, how can we lose? You'll be on Oprah in no time.

Bono

do it yourself!

God damn

Again, great post. You just forgot to call him Boner.

 

[*I*]

Im not the one whos been at this since 1984. This is his cause. Problem; Hunger Solution;Farming and water. Surely this can be achieved without Monsantos help. Good Lord, Talk about making a deal with the devil.

Secondly, I didnt mean that he should take on the entire project by himself, thats ridiculous. But if he can buy out Monsantos part then by all means. They are only involved to exploit, period. Please, Bono, get as far away from Monsanto as possible! Their horrible influence on the world is not Conspiracy Theory it is very much fact. The proof is everywhere you care to look for it.

Lastly, I love the aggression and flawed logic in your argument. If Bono gave up 10 percent of his 600 million that would leave him with 500+ million. I think comparing me to him is a little stupid in that regard. Like I said, he probably wouldnt even miss it. Seriously. Would I miss ten percent of under a hundred grand? Obviously it would hurt more. So what exactly is your point? Seems like a small sacrifice to make for a cause hes been slaving over for the past 30 years. Especially considering how close he is to achieving the goal and ,lets be honest here, how much longer he has left to spend that money anyway. He is 55 afterall...

This isnt one of those things where those of us who know whats up can sit back and wait to say i told you so. No one is gonna feel good enough to laugh at you when were all watching this greedy blackhole have its way with Africa.

 

[gvox]

Lastly, I love the aggression and flawed logic in your argument. If Bono gave up 10 percent of his 600 million that would leave him with 500+ million. I think comparing me to him is a little stupid in that regard. Like I said, he probably wouldnt even miss it. Seriously. Would I miss ten percent of under a hundred grand? Obviously it would hurt more.

It's not just "a little stupid", it's one of the most patently absurd comparisons ever presented as part of an argument on this board outside of FYM (but that's another story altogether).

Don't worry, noone else here actually believes that 10% of 50K would be "barely felt" by the average commoner. Can celebrities worth over half a billion dollars give away 10% without it remotely affecting them? Yes. Yes, they actually can.

 

[Nick66]

It's not just "a little stupid", it's one of the most patently absurd comparisons ever presented as part of an argument on this board outside of FYM (but that's another story altogether).

Gabe, please stop being mean to me.

 

[mama cass]

c'mon nick66, it was a pretty ridiculous comparison, you've got to admit it

and this isn't passive-aggressive??

Again, great post. You just forgot to call him Boner.

if you can't take the heat, stay outta the kitchen!

 

[Nick66]

c'mon nick66, it was a pretty ridiculous comparison, you've got to admit it

and this isn't passive-aggressive??



if you can't take the heat, stay outta the kitchen!

Actually, I addressed *I* directly...if Gabe want to do that, I'm fine with it. And trust me, Gabe's comments to me had nothing to do with anything I said in this post. Watch...Gabe will respond to your comment, not to anything I've said.

And I'm not sure anyone who knows my history here would say I can't take the heat. But thanks.

 

[mama cass]

well i don't follow everyone's conversation history in here, so i was only going by the posts in this thread re. you and gvox - that's why i thought it looked like a massive over reaction

(and i did think you were unnecessarily harsh on *|*)

 

[Nick66]

well i don't follow everyone's conversation history in here, so i was only going by the posts in this thread re. you and gvox - that's why i thought it looked like a massive over reaction

Oh, well OK. I'll go back and soften it a little for you then.