Bono Interview in Rolling Stone

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The most problematic thing to me seems to be this notion that we must provide an outlet for "young male rage" - I mean, really? Looking back at history, it really doesn't seem like they've had a lack of a way of expressing it, at the expense of others.

I agree. I mentioned that earlier, what's with the male rage/anger stereotype? He does seem to be perpetuating that.

I would think some men might be bothered by that stereotype? The outlet for some male rage these days seems to be mass shootings and mass violence, I hate to say. We could sure use some "girly" ways to counteract that.
 
I didn't have to assume anything...I just read what you wrote.

If what you meant to say by saying it's problematic that "we must provide an outlet for "young male rage" was actually that yes, it's important that young males have an outlet to channel that rage into music, so that it doesn't get channeled into other (perhaps violent) places, why then yes, we agree that it's important that young males have this outlet.
Then how come so many of these young males who commit mass violence listen to this "rage" music but do it anyway? Honestly I think it's a bit naive to think that music is going to be an outlet that prevents that.
 
Then how come so many of these young males who commit mass violence listen to this "rage" music but do it anyway? Honestly I think it's a bit naive to think that music is going to be an outlet that prevents that.

That's an over simplification, and I hope you realise that. No one is saying that simply listening to "rage" music is going to "prevent" mass violence. That's absurd. Mass violence is generally committed by terrorists or people who are mentally ill. And in any event, relatively speaking the number of young males who commit mass violence is statistically insignificant. And who is talking about "mass violence" anyway?

Are you denying that music can be a healthy, cathartic way of dealing with rage? There are studies, which I've linked to previously, that indicate otherwise (not to mention the anecdotal personal stories people have told in this thread).

And yes, if you're carrying around a lot of anger and rage, I'd rather you sweat it out in mosh pit than going out and beating someone with a baseball bat. Rage in itself isn't violent...but boredom + anger in young people can lead to violence, and it's healthy to have an non-violent outlet for that. You don't need to be a psychologist or rock star to figure that out. And maybe these kind of outlets actually have prevented a lot of violence...have you considered that?

Do I think music is going to stop a mentally ill person, or a terrorist, from committing mass murder? No. I don't believe "rage music" can prevent mass murder any more than I believe it can cause it. But I do believe it can give an otherwise good kid who's holding in a lot of anger and might otherwise violently lash out under certain circumstances a non-violent outlet for that anger. We all need pressure release valves.

We could sure use some "girly" ways to counteract that.

Such as?
 
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“I know the rage in you is strong
Write a world where we can belong”

Once again, I don’t think Bono is equating “rage” to aggression or violence. I think he’s talking about the rage like he had that made him need to write songs like SBS or Bullet.

On a separate note: I’m in the camp that knows that what Bono said was wrong, but also agrees that our society is far too hair-triggered over words sometimes.
 
“I know the rage in you is strong
Write a world where we can belong”

Once again, I don’t think Bono is equating “rage” to aggression or violence. I think he’s talking about the rage like he had that made him need to write songs like SBS or Bullet.

Yeah, I think this is what he was trying to get at, too. I would love to see more of that kind of attitude in music, too. Unfortunately, nowadays, if musicians did do that, they'd probably get complaints for being too "preachy" and "pushing an agenda", despite the fact that protest music has a long and valued history.

But yeah, I would gladly welcome more musical commentary on all the craziness going on in the world wherever possible.

That being said, though, I can see where MrsS read his comments the way she did, too. Even if young men are expressing their rage through music, which I fully agree is a valuable and positive thing to do on many levels, I understand where the suggestion in and of itself that men unleash their rage can come off like a troubling idea in the current climate. Like you note, I know that's not what Bono meant with his comments, but I can see where it can be read that way because of the clunky nature of his statement in general.

On a different note, I like reading all the discussion here about the metal genre and the passionate community surrounding it. Metal isn't a genre I follow much-I like a few metal songs here and there, but it's not a genre I'm super familiar with. So it's neat to get an inside glimpse of what the subculture is like and whatnot :). And mama cass, your daughter sounds like a kickass person. I wish her all the success with her music career.
 
On a different note, I like reading all the discussion here about the metal genre and the passionate community surrounding it. Metal isn't a genre I follow much-I like a few metal songs here and there, but it's not a genre I'm super familiar with. So it's neat to get an inside glimpse of what the subculture is like and whatnot :). And mama cass, your daughter sounds like a kickass person. I wish her all the success with her music career.

:up:

Agree completely. I'm not into metal (well, a little when I was younger), but I love reading about things people are passionate about and why they're passionate about them. And especially how those things have impacted their lives. Spent 20 minutes talking to the barista at Costa the other day about how Harry Potter saved her life and got her through her parents divorce growing up. Any positive thing someone is really passionate about and committed to is OK by me.

Almost makes me want to go and listen to some metal (almost).
 
:lol:

If, by viewpoints that differ from my own, you mean people who post racist, sexist, white supremacist views, then yes, I PROUDLY stand against them, and make no bones about the fact that racism, white supremacy and sexism are not welcome here. If that’s an issue for you, then tough shit. I’m not here to coddle those who want to normalize racism, sexism and white supremacy, and if you have an issue with it, then frankly, it makes me question your moral character.

And finally, publicly attacking a moderator, regardless of your or their political leanings, is a sure fire ticket out of here, and given your attitude, I’m happy to say: good riddance.

:applaud:

Also, re the full interview, I was glad to see Suu Kyi come up.

Yes, I wanted to bring this up as well. I'd have liked to see him come down a little harder on her, but it was a pretty great quote, eye-opening and honest, he's obviously really struggling with it. :up:

They’re still trying to normalize kicking a female photographer in the face...

??

I’m sure they won’t be the only ones. Artists and fans who normally would have just rolled their eyes anything Bono said are now going to view him as an asshole. Guy Oseary better have someone on damage control.

On the other hand he's just won himself a hell of a lot of new fans in the sexist male fuckwit category, see all the comments on FB and Twitter.

U2’s lyrics have not a hint of misogyny as far as I know. Nor do they promote violence,

I don't believe in forced entry
I don't believe in rape
But every time she passes by wild thoughts escape


I didn't have to assume anything...I just read what you wrote.

If what you meant to say by saying it's problematic that "we must provide an outlet for "young male rage" was actually that yes, it's important that young males have an outlet to channel that rage into music, so that it doesn't get channeled into other (perhaps violent) places, why then yes, we agree that it's important that young males have this outlet.

God you can be a condescending prick at times. Anitram is one of the smartest people we have here, stop doubling down and assuming you're always in the right.
 
Bono said an inelegant, incorrect thing in a sprawling, comprehensive interview. He’ll be called out for it, and should be, and will clarify, and should. We all seem to understand what he meant while at the same time able to identify what and why his words were poorly chosen.

Next.

What irritates me, aside from sexist bias encoded in language, is the joy some get from kicking someone who has always been one of the good guys. Always. Good guys are imperfect, and often fall short. Help them be better, because you’re imperfect too.

This made the news in MN on a local station. Labeling Bono a sexist. There are people that will walk away from that story assuming he is a sexist which is a shame. His statement was poor and I'm sure he would reword if he had the chance. I'm not excusing him for not thinking that through a bit more. But the media's aggressive attack on people who say the wrong thing is completely out of line. It is all about ratings. Creating a world where people need to be frightened about what they say is dangerous. If we want less honest and bland interviews that is all this creates. The media is so guilty of this. They didn't balance out his humanitarian acts in the story...they just focused on a 6 or 7 word sentence he said. People don't always say the perfect thing....lets give people a little grace when they say the wrong thing vs. completely burying them.

The two best points made in a 15 page thread happened to be within view of each other on the same page. Agree word for word with both of you!

Irvine: "sexist bias encoded in language."

YES! Putting it this way both identifies why people genuinely take issue with this comment (not the people looking to pile on anything or those who already hate Bono mostly because he's a good man) and provides a context. That context is of course our long history as a society and culture. If we understand it this way, then we can do what is rational. Granted, rational is not in vogue these days to say the least, but here's what is rational:

-Understand what Bono meant.

-Understand why people could have legitimate issues with his choice of words.

-Understand that this is the result of centuries of history and development of language and culture. A culture that is constantly evolving and striving to be equal. What could've hurt equally 30 or 40 years ago would go unmentioned. Now, people are speaking up. And that's not "PC bullshit" or any other talking point ideologues have developed to describe it. That's advancement as a society.

-This advancement only works if we discuss these things constructively, with compassion and with the understanding that intent and effect are not always the same thing. Trump saying "grab them by the pussy" (and plenty else he said about women) should've buried him a long time ago. This is far, far different. Give Bono and others some grace and judge them in the context of who they are as human beings: their life work, who they surround themselves with, their stated views and how the life they've lived reflects those views.

Which brings me to my next point. Someone mentioned a number of pages back that this outrage culture is all noise and exhausting and extremely difficult to keep up with. Very, very true. It all gets lumped together and there's all kinds of FALSE EQUIVALENCY out there. Lots of people who couldn't care less about refugees, girls going to school, mothers with HIV/AIDS, women being sexually harassed, etc are jumping on Bono for this as a way to say "hey, the liberal globalist hero Bono does it, too. Shut up about my boy Trump."

There's no easy way to break through this- and the media - traditional and social- will not help us as outrage drives ratings. It's our job to differentiate between comments like Bono's and actions that constitute sexism, sexual assault, harassment, etc. Bono should be held responsible for his comments but at the end of the day, they are exact reflections of society and the times he came up in. Girly was said the way Bono said it without second thought in 1970s Dublin. So his comments should trigger a conversation while retaining compassion for him.

On the other hand, lumping this in with Trump or Weinstein or Lauer or Roy Moore is just insane. It's not "part of the noise" it's complete insanity and a disservice to humanity to be honest. "Girly" as a common way to describe something weak or lacking passion was an acceptable thing and still is with many well meaning people as we've found out recently.:lol: What was never acceptable under any moral or decent societal standard was sexual assault or harassment. The culture may have been such that people could more easily get away with it- but that does not make it ok or something to shrug off.

Nothing makes me more angry- as a straight white male 30 years old who has all the sexual desires any male has- than guys who say "all of these 'Me too" type stories make it so that I have no idea what I can and can't do anymore. Like, I can't flirt or escalate or have sexual encounters." It's really pretty damn simple. Don't do anything that's not consented to. Don't use your power as a supervisor at work to coerce a woman into a sexual encounter. Don't punish or shame her or pressure her for rejecting you. Stop hitting on the bartender after it becomes clear she doesn't want it.

Everyone should get the fucking idea.

Anyone who thinks they have anything to worry about from the "me too" movement is either insane, buying bullshit talking points about "pc culture run amok" or actually guilty of something.

As someone alluded to, criticism of "pc" culture is really just resentment that it's no longer acceptable- in our law or culture- to treat entire groups of people like second class citizens and talk in ways that reinforce this.

We can have this understanding and also understand that crucifying Bono for this or calling him a misogynist is completely unfair and reflective of a dangerous trend in our societal discourse. I'd argue the problem is more false equivalency and lack of nuance than it is political correctness as many on the right claim or a society that is hopelessly tilted toward malicious, intentional sexism as some on the left claim (albeit not as many offenders as the right).

We've come a long way. We have work to do. The picture is nuanced and our conversation needs to reflect that. My fear- already being realized- is that Bono is going to get swept up in the ridiculous shit show that passes for discourse these days. And looking at his words and actions over the years, no one deserves that fate less.

I hope my fear is wrong, but I doubt it will be.
 
One thing to remember is that U2 was born out of punk music which is obviously music generally constructed from some sense of rage.

However I can tell you that when I was in junior high/high school in the ZooTV days U2 were perceived as "girly" or "gay" from people generally - Mr Macphisto or The Fly characters certainly arent the most visually masculine things ever to have had eyes laid upon.

I know to this day some people that dont even consider U2 a rock band but more of a pop act. Do I agree with them no but that's a different story for a different day.

Will be interesting to see if Bono has a response for his comments in the near future - he should be smart enough not to dig a bigger hole for himself.
 
Will be interesting to see if Bono has a response for his comments in the near future - he should be smart enough not to dig a bigger hole for himself.

"Hey, I like girly stuff sometimes. Some of my best friends are girls!"
 
:up:

Any positive thing someone is really passionate about and committed to is OK by me.

i think this was one of the problems with Bono's comment - i.e., it was a negative angle, which, coming from a privileged person on a public platform, is always going to be taken badly as unfair criticism, that's why positivity is a good thing - it gives people a little boost, instead of bringing them down...
 
On a different note, I like reading all the discussion here about the metal genre and the passionate community surrounding it. Metal isn't a genre I follow much-I like a few metal songs here and there, but it's not a genre I'm super familiar with. So it's neat to get an inside glimpse of what the subculture is like and whatnot :). And mama cass, your daughter sounds like a kickass person. I wish her all the success with her music career.

thanks so much Moonlit_Angel! that's really sweet! i'm really proud of them both but i'm reaaaaally biased obviously (and am just relieved they will never ever read any of this because they would kill me haha)
 
This has been a very interesting discussion, and as I'm reading I'm thinking about this, which hasn't really been discussed.

Men and women are not exactly the same. Nor should they be, we were made differently.

Now I have three older children, two daughters and a son, so I've been in the thick of the masculinity/femininity discussions.

Usually, and I know everyone knows this, men have more testosterone, women more estrogen. In most physical endeavors, the strongest men will always beat the strongest women, what does that mean?

Not much really. Women can strive to achieve their dreams in any field just as well as men, and that should be celebrated and affirmed!

I want my girls to achieve as much of their dreams as much as my son, and I know they can and will!

"Girly" certainly can be a pejorative term, for sure. But so can "masculinity " or "toxic masculinity " be used as a perjorative, when there's nothing wrong with being masculine! I've known a few "toxic feminists" as well!

Be masculine, or be feminine, just don't be a jerk about it.

Yes, Bono could have, and probably should have said something different. But it's ok for men and women to not be exactly the same.
 
This has been a very interesting discussion, and as I'm reading I'm thinking about this, which hasn't really been discussed.

Men and women are not exactly the same. Nor should they be, we were made differently.

Now I have three older children, two daughters and a son, so I've been in the thick of the masculinity/femininity discussions.

Usually, and I know everyone knows this, men have more testosterone, women more estrogen. In most physical endeavors, the strongest men will always beat the strongest women, what does that mean?

Not much really. Women can strive to achieve their dreams in any field just as well as men, and that should be celebrated and affirmed!

I want my girls to achieve as much of their dreams as much as my son, and I know they can and will!

"Girly" certainly can be a pejorative term, for sure. But so can "masculinity " or "toxic masculinity " be used as a perjorative, when there's nothing wrong with being masculine! I've known a few "toxic feminists" as well!

Be masculine, or be feminine, just don't be a jerk about it.

Yes, Bono could have, and probably should have said something different. But it's ok for men and women to not be exactly the same.

Your post reminded me of something from my childhood, grade school i believe, there was a girl in my class who was a very good runner and one day at recess she challenged me to a race. I have no idea why, other than maybe i said something dumb like "Boys are faster than Girls", or something like that...honestly i cannot remember after all of these years. Anyway we decided to race and ill be damned if she didn't blow me away. It was quite embarrassing losing the race to a girl, because boys weren't supposed to do that, especially in that time (early 80's). Of course i should mention that later on in high school she became a really good runner and did well in track and field and whatnot, but that didn't matter to me at the time :wink:

I've always admired the sacrifices that women make in this world, one of many of course would include child bearing and being a mother. I am thankful every single day for the women in my life, including my Mom, my sister, grandmother, etc. Very few men could go through with that pain and so on, of course as you mention, we are built differently, but it does boggle the mind to think about what women go through sometimes. I know in this day and age we're not supposed to hold the door open for women because of the "that's sexist" mentality some people have now. I still do hold doors open for women, men, anyone i can. It seems to be the polite thing to do and i have a genuine desire to be kind to others. Except when im driving in traffic but that's a different story! Anyway im off topic a bit so let me just say that once again i don't fault Bono for what he said i can see through the dust, though i do realize why some would take it the way they do. It is what it is...
 
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The main question at the heart of the quote is, what does Bono mean when he says "girly"? At its worst, it could be a dismissive gender stereotype by an older man who, despite being an activist and an outspoken political actor, has not progressed with the conversation around gender and the stereotypes/constructs we build around it. At its best, it was an attempt to label the trend of how poppy and "soft" music has become (which I find strange coming from U2, considering that the anthemic and melodic rock music that is so ubiquitous today, is largely of their influence). The association of said feisty-ness and rebelliousness mentioned previously with male voices, is just silly, and Bono should know better.

Obviously though, this is going to blow up so big because it touches upon things that benefit all sides of political discourse. For the right, it is an opportunity to drag down a guy they especially don't like, and to use what-aboutisms even more to distract from figures like the President and Roy Moore. For the left, it is a rich white male celebrity making a slightly sexist, if misunderstood, statement.

As a fan, and as a person who has closely followed Bono, I know that he wasn't trying to demean women intentionally or to be sexist. I think that this is just a reflection of how hardwired the stereotypical concept of what is "girly", is in our upbringings. We all heard it growing up, and, especially for Bono who grew up in the 60's and 70's, I'm sure that it is even more present. I'm going to criticism him with the intention of educating, and I am not going to tear him down. That's not productive in my view.
 
This has been a very interesting discussion, and as I'm reading I'm thinking about this, which hasn't really been discussed.

Men and women are not exactly the same. Nor should they be, we were made differently.

Now I have three older children, two daughters and a son, so I've been in the thick of the masculinity/femininity discussions.

Usually, and I know everyone knows this, men have more testosterone, women more estrogen. In most physical endeavors, the strongest men will always beat the strongest women, what does that mean?

Not much really. Women can strive to achieve their dreams in any field just as well as men, and that should be celebrated and affirmed!

I want my girls to achieve as much of their dreams as much as my son, and I know they can and will!

"Girly" certainly can be a pejorative term, for sure. But so can "masculinity " or "toxic masculinity " be used as a perjorative, when there's nothing wrong with being masculine! I've known a few "toxic feminists" as well!

Be masculine, or be feminine, just don't be a jerk about it.

Yes, Bono could have, and probably should have said something different. But it's ok for men and women to not be exactly the same.

This is an excellent post and very, very true!

It's ok to have an enlightened conversation about gender/stereotypes/sexism, etc while still acknowledging biological reality.

I've always thought that should be acknowledged- even as someone who has always considered myself a male feminist like Bono. I still think this is important to keep in mind- even as I and many others have examined how we use certain words and/or stereotypes in light of a certain person who was elected to the Presidency . I never threw the "n word" around or made disparaging comments about women before- so that hasn't changed. I've just been more aware of the subtle ways you can perpetuate or people can experience sexism or racism.

Very, very important points that you've added to this discussion.:up:
 
As for the actual interview, after commenting here, I killed a good hour at work reading it for understanding. Went over some responses Bono gave a couple times. Thought about what he was saying, etc. It's amazing when you read him- how intelligent, down to Earth and thoughtful this man is. I always enjoy him, but as others have mentioned, this was one of his better interviews. He always says an incoherent thing and/or goes off on a tangent or two unrelated to the question- but those instances were few and far between here.

This interview both gave me an excellent sense of where his life and thoughts are the last few years and actually gave me a much better understanding of the album. A few things stood out- but none more so than his explanation of the "now you're at the other end...." line in "Love is all we have left."

I just had time to listen to the end of "summer of love" on my drive to work tonight- but just that part of the album already felt more cohesive and made more sense to me after having read the interview.

I think the people who have said SOE is a grower are really on to something. I liked it at first listen, but I haven't been as quick to elevate it to greatness as a lot of folks here. It definitely gets better each time around.
 
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Anyway, the more I think about the social media melt down over this (and among some on here), the more I think the worst over reactions are hypocritical, opportunistic bullshit. People who already don't like Bono are using this as an excuse to take a cheap shot at him. Bono, no matter what you think of him or how annoying you think he may be, has been a force for good in this world, including for women. U2’s lyrics have not a hint of misogyny as far as I know. Nor do they promote violence, and for the most part are pretty damn uplifting. As he's pointed out many times, U2 is run by women. Bono was raised by all accounts two brilliant, independent daughters. He married a successful, strong woman in her own right. Bono as far as I can see walks the walk on this issue.

And what I find to be incredibly hypocritical, frankly, is that some of the people in this thread who are loudest in their self-righteous condemnation of Bono, I’ve seen praise artists whose music has some of the most misogynistic, violent lyrics out there....and many of those same artists don't exactly lead stellar personal lives in this regard either. So yeah, when you start calling those guys out, regularly, maybe then I'll respect what you have to say about Bono.

I am glad that someone had the guts to point this out. Frankly, as woman, being dictated that some offhand, unobtrusive comment must be related to "coded sexist language" or the prior history of oppression is far more offensive to me than anything Bono said. Assuming that we should get worked up over a complete non-issue says a lot about some of the preconceptions posters here (including female ones) have about women. It is very, very disappointing.
 
I am glad that someone had the guts to point this out. Frankly, as woman, being dictated that some offhand, unobtrusive comment must be related to "coded sexist language" or the prior history of oppression is far more offensive to me than anything Bono said. Assuming that we should get worked up over a complete non-issue says a lot about some of the preconceptions posters here (including female ones) have about women. It is very, very disappointing.



:applaud:
As a woman, I get to decide how and when I’m offended. The girly comment didn’t move the needle, but the insecure feeling of “wait, should I be offended?” is a lot worse.

No, I shouldn’t be. And I’m not.
 
Oof, I hope I wasn't one of the posters making you feel like that. It certainly wasn't my intention and I apologize if I did!
 
I am glad that someone had the guts to point this out. Frankly, as woman, being dictated that some offhand, unobtrusive comment must be related to "coded sexist language" or the prior history of oppression is far more offensive to me than anything Bono said. Assuming that we should get worked up over a complete non-issue says a lot about some of the preconceptions posters here (including female ones) have about women. It is very, very disappointing.

:applaud:
As a woman, I get to decide how and when I’m offended. The girly comment didn’t move the needle, but the insecure feeling of “wait, should I be offended?” is a lot worse.

No, I shouldn’t be. And I’m not.

Same here! You’ve both put into words how I’ve been feeling about this issue.
 
no one should feel pressured to form an opinion simply based on what others think... it's ok not to go with the flow (i.e. social media mob rule lol)

i always prefer to go with my gut reaction to things... i hate being dictated to, and prefer to think for myself and form my own opinions on things...

if you're not offended that's great, but other women might be for various reasons (especially women struggling in a male dominated industry for example), and both standpoints are valid
 
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