namkcuR
ONE love, blood, life
Hello all.
I was actually going to start this a month ago, but people understandably didn't want to do both this and LN7's survey at the same time, so I decided to wait. I'm not actually going to start any voting or anything on this until the survey is completely finished and the final results posted, but it is nearing its completion, so I figured it was time to post the intro for this survivor so discussion could at least be started.
Many U2 survivors have been run in the history of this site, but never this one. Live Survivor has long been the white whale of U2 survivors, discussed at the end of every survivor as an option for the next survivor, but never actually done. This is for good reason. It is difficult to figure out a way to run it that fairly examines all of the material while not taking forever and ever to finish it. I have been devising such a way over the last months and, with feedback and suggestions from Axver(much thanks for his help), I now have a layout that I think is doable.
With that said...
I. What material is eligible to compete?
Firstly, a few things:
1. Snippets are not eligible. Only full-length performances.
2. Mimed performances - where the band is just pretending to play to the studio recording - are not eligible.
3. Officially released live covers such as Cartoon World, Helter Skelter, All Along The Watchtower, Satellite Of Love, Can't Help Falling In Love, and I Remember You will be eligible, but live covers that were not officially released will not be eligible.
4. Live performances of pre-Boy stuff(i.e. Street Mission, The Fool, etc) will not be eligible, because most of the boots from back then are of such poor quality and the songs themselves so obscure they'll never get anywhere in the competition(and the few tv performances some of these songs got are mimed). The only exception is the aforementioned Cartoon World because it got an official release.
5. For the purposes of this competition, An Cat Dubh/Into The Heart will be considered one song, as they've never, that I know of, been played independent of each other.
Official Releases
The bedrock, the source of 95% of the competing tracks, will be all official live releases. This includes the following:
Selected Broadcasts
In addition to all of that officially released material, selected broadcast(aka tv or radio) performances will also be competing. These are performances of songs that were never on an official live release*, performances of songs in significantly different arrangements than they appear on official releases, and in some cases performances of songs that are on official releases but are important enough to the band's history that they need to be included:
*This also includes the televised SOE performances so far, as well as songs that were played live but never received a studio release, ex. Womanfish.
Selected Bootlegs
Finally, for all those songs that, after all of the official releases and selected broadcast performances, still have no representation in the competition*, selected bootlegs - in the form of mostly soundboard audio or pro-shot video available on youtube - will be competing. I selected these, because there is really no way for everyone to vote on which boots to include, and besides, when you're looking for good performance+good quality recording+available on YT, a lot of these kind of select themselves.
*Again, this includes songs that were played live but never received a studio release, ex. We Love You/North Star/Glastonbury/Return Of The Stingray Guitar.
Here they are:
*Last but not least: We know that at least one JT30 show was recorded, but we don't know if or when it will be released. However, there is a really good multi-cam shot full JT30 gig from Dublin - 7/22/2017 - on YT, and, while I was originally just looking for a good RHMT, I've decided to allow the entirety of it into the competition. That way, RHMT, and all of those performances of JT side 2 songs that hadn't been played in forever, and the new arrangment of BD, etc, will get a chance.
So, that is the complete list of what is eligible. I want to emphasize that absolutely everything will be linked to YT and, when not available on YT, to Spotify. So you do not have to know everything by heart, when it's time to vote on something, it will be a click away for you.
II. Format
One of the most difficult parts of getting this survivor off the ground has been how to deal with the fact that there are so many songs that are represented so many times amongst the eligible material. They way we're going to handle it, is you're all going to pick one version of each song in the first phase of the competition. Here's how it'll work:
Phase 1 - Ballots:
All of the songs that appear in multiple places in the eligible material will be organized into four ballots:
1980-1983 Preliminary Ballot
1984-1989 Preliminary Ballot
1990-1999 Preliminary Ballot
2000-Present Preliminary Ballot
Each ballot will get its own thread, and will consist of two sections - "Pick Three" and "Pick One"
Simply put, for songs that are represented five or more times in the eligible material, you will pick your top three performances, and for songs that are represented between two and four times in the eligible material, you will pick your single top performance. This is to at least try to combat the possibility of two popular versions of a song splitting the vote and allowing a third one to advance. In either category, the version of a song that receives the most votes will advance and all other versions of that song will be eliminated.
Just to give you an idea, here is an example of a "Pick Three" song:
Until The End Of The World
Zoo TV Live From Sydney
Popmart Live From Mexico City
Elevation 2001 Live From Boston
U2 Go Home
360 At The Rose Bowl
U22
Innocence+Experience Live In Paris
and an example of a "Pick One" song:
The Unforgettable Fire
Live From Paris 1987
360 At The Rose Bowl
U22
(When the ballots are actually posted, everything will be linked to YT, and Spotify where YT isn't available)
So it will take some time for you all to go through the ballots and post your votes. The individual ballot threads will have specific instructions for how to post your votes, format, etc.
I'm doing this phase with text-vote ballots because the only other option is to have an individual poll for every individual song, and that would just clutter EYKIW to hell, as well as take too long.
My hope and plan is to post the four ballot threads at the same time and then give everyone two weeks to get their ballots in.
Phase 2 - First Round Of Polls
Once the ballots are finished and one version of each of those songs has been chosen, they will be combined with all of the songs for whom there is only one version in the eligible material(and thus weren't on the ballots). This giant pool will then be again divided into sections by what I'll call micro-eras - Boy/October, War, UF, JT/R&H, AB/Zooropa, Passengesr/Pop, ATYCLB/HTDAAB, and NLOTH/SOI/SOE. The reason we have to divide into smaller eras here is because polls here can't have more than 30 options, and the goal is to get to a point where we only have 30 songs left for each of the four main eras - 80-83, 84-89, 90-00, and 00-Present - because that is what's needed for the next phase.
The way this will work, is I'll simply put up a poll for the 'micro-eras' that need trimming and tell you exactly how many tracks need to be eliminated from that 'micro-era'. So, for example, I might say, 'vote for your two LEAST favorite tracks' for Passengers/Pop or 'vote for your four LEAST favorite tracks' for Boy/October, and then that's what you'd do.
(The War and UF 'micro-eras' will get byes, i.e. nothing will need to be eliminated from them in this phase, as they both have small numbers of tracks, and only a small amount of fat will need to be trimmed from Boy/October and JT/R&H in order to make the even 30 needed for 80-83 and 84-90, when combined with War and UF respectively.)
Each of these polls would go for a day or two, and in this way, we'd be able to trim down some of the 'micro-eras', combine them, and get it down to 30 songs for each of the four eras, which sets us up for...
Phase 3 - Quarterfinals and Semifinals
This will work exactly the same way the Non-Album Track Survivor I ran last year did.
There will be a Quarterfinal poll for 80-83, 84-90, 90-99, and 00-Present, each open for two days. You will pick your fifteen favorite tracks for each. The top fifteen from each of the former two will advance and combine to create the 80-90 semifinal, while the top fifteen from each of the latter two will advance and combine to create the 90-Present semifinal.
Those two semifinals will run the same way, for two days, each, and after that, the top fifteen from each will advance and combine to create the final 30.
Phase 4 - Traditional Survivor
From here, it'll just be a regular survivor, vote for your least favorite, one elimination a day, until only one track is left standing.
And that's the format as of now.
III. Timeline
I don't want this to drag on forever and ever, because interest dissipates the longer it goes on. I am hopeful that, from the time the the ballots are posted and voting actually starts, we can get this done in roughly two to two-and-a-half months' time. I see it breaking down like this:
Phase 1 - Ballots - 2 weeks
Phase 2 - First Round Of Polls - 2 weeks
Phase 3 - Quarterfinals and Semifinals - 2 weeks
Phase 4 - Traditional Survivor - 1 month
IV. Conclusion
That's about all I've got. I feel like like I've laid it all out in a good amount of detail. This thread is to gauge interest and for general discussion. I do want to say that if I don't sense enough interest here, I won't go through with it. It's a lot of effort and I don't want to do it if only three people are interested.
But I'm hopeful that enough of you will be into it(I also hope that no one gets burned out on U2 doing the survey and this back-to-back). This should be a fun thing to do for everybody.
I'm open to questions and suggestions on everything.
Have at it.
I was actually going to start this a month ago, but people understandably didn't want to do both this and LN7's survey at the same time, so I decided to wait. I'm not actually going to start any voting or anything on this until the survey is completely finished and the final results posted, but it is nearing its completion, so I figured it was time to post the intro for this survivor so discussion could at least be started.
Many U2 survivors have been run in the history of this site, but never this one. Live Survivor has long been the white whale of U2 survivors, discussed at the end of every survivor as an option for the next survivor, but never actually done. This is for good reason. It is difficult to figure out a way to run it that fairly examines all of the material while not taking forever and ever to finish it. I have been devising such a way over the last months and, with feedback and suggestions from Axver(much thanks for his help), I now have a layout that I think is doable.
With that said...
I. What material is eligible to compete?
Firstly, a few things:
1. Snippets are not eligible. Only full-length performances.
2. Mimed performances - where the band is just pretending to play to the studio recording - are not eligible.
3. Officially released live covers such as Cartoon World, Helter Skelter, All Along The Watchtower, Satellite Of Love, Can't Help Falling In Love, and I Remember You will be eligible, but live covers that were not officially released will not be eligible.
4. Live performances of pre-Boy stuff(i.e. Street Mission, The Fool, etc) will not be eligible, because most of the boots from back then are of such poor quality and the songs themselves so obscure they'll never get anywhere in the competition(and the few tv performances some of these songs got are mimed). The only exception is the aforementioned Cartoon World because it got an official release.
5. For the purposes of this competition, An Cat Dubh/Into The Heart will be considered one song, as they've never, that I know of, been played independent of each other.
Official Releases
The bedrock, the source of 95% of the competing tracks, will be all official live releases. This includes the following:
- Full Releases
- Under A Blood Red Sky(Both Album and DVD tracks)
- Wide Awake In America
- Rattle And Hum(both Album and Film tracks)
- ZooTV: Live From Sydney
- Popmart: Live From Mexico City
- Popheart EP
- Elevation 2001: Live From Boston
- U2 Go Home: Live From Slane Castle
- Live From The Brooklyn Bridge EP
- Vertigo 2005: Live From Chicago
- 360 At The Rosebowl
- Wide Awake In Europe
- Innocence + Experience: Live From Paris
- Non-Stand-Alone Releases
- Another Time, Another Place: Live At The Marquee(U2.com Fan Club Release)
- Live From Boston 1981(From The Complete U2)
- Live From Paris 1987(Bundled with Joshua Tree 20th Anniversary Release)
- Live From Madison Square Garden 1987(Bundled with Joshua Tree 30th Anniversary Release)
- Point Depot 12/31/89(From The Complete U2)
- Vertigo 05: Live From Milan(Bundled with U218)
- U22(U2.com Fan Club Release)
- From The Ground Up: Edge's Picks(U2.com Fan Club Release)
- Live Tracks from Singles that didn't appear on any of the above
- I Will Follow Live
- IWF Hattem 5/14/82
- New Year's Day
- Fire Werchter 7/4/82
- I Threw A Brick Werchter 7/4/82
- Angel Of Harlem
- Love Rescue Me London 10/16/88
- Stay
- Bullet The Blue Sky Dublin 8/28/93
- Love Is Blindness New York 8/30/92
- Miss Sarajevo
- One Modena 9/12/95
- If God Will Send His Angels
- Sunday Bloody Sunday Sarajevo 9/23/97
- Stuck In A Moment
- Beautiful Day Los Angeles 10/27/00
- New York Los Angeles 10/27/00
- All I Want Is You Paris 10/19/00
- EBTTRT Paris 10/19/00
- Elevation
- New York New York 12/5/00 i.e. Irving Plaza gig
- I Will Follow Irving Plaza
- I Remember You Irving Plaza
- Walk On
- Stay Toronto 5/25/01
- COBL
- The Fly Manchester 6/19/92
- EBTTRT Manchester 6/19/92
- All Because Of You
- She's A Mystery To Me Brooklyn Bridge 11/22/2004
- Window In The Skies
- Zoo Station Buenos Aires 3/2/06
- Kite Sydney 11/11/06
- Magnificent
- Breathe Boston 3/11/09
- Vertigo Boston 3/11/09
- Crazy Tonight
- Magnificent Boston 3/11/09
- Song For Someone
- Song For Someone San Jose 5/18/15
- I Will Follow Live
- Live tracks from CD/DVD Re-issue Extras
- Boy
- 11OTT London 9/22/80
- Cartoon World Dublin 2/26/80
- October
- Gloria London 12/6/82
- I Fall Down London 12/6/82
- I Threw A Brick London 12/6/82
- Fire London 12/6/82
- October London 12/6/82
- With A Shout BBC Session 9/3/81
- Scarlet BBC Session 9/3/81
- I Threw A Brick BBC Session 9/3/81
- War
- A Day Without Me Werchter 7/4/82
- ZooTV Sydney DVD
- Tryin' To Throw Your Arms Around The World New York 8/29-30/92
- Desire New York 8/29-30/92
- Popmart Mexico City DVD
- Discotheque, Velvet Dress Rotterdam 7/18/97
- HMTMKMKM, Mysterious Ways, One Edmonton 6/14/97
- Best Of 1980-1990 VHS
- One Tree Hill Rattle And Hum outtake
- Elevation 2001: Live From Boston bonus tracks
- Beautiful Day Dublin 9/00
- Elevation Miami 3/01
- Innocence+Experience Paris bonus tracks
- Out Of Control Paris 12/6/15
- The Electric Co Paris 11/11/15
- Bad Paris 12/6/15
- Boy
Selected Broadcasts
In addition to all of that officially released material, selected broadcast(aka tv or radio) performances will also be competing. These are performances of songs that were never on an official live release*, performances of songs in significantly different arrangements than they appear on official releases, and in some cases performances of songs that are on official releases but are important enough to the band's history that they need to be included:
*This also includes the televised SOE performances so far, as well as songs that were played live but never received a studio release, ex. Womanfish.
- Never appeared on an official release
- A Celebration - October Tour Hattem, Netherlands 5/14/1982, aired on Dutch TV "Countdown in Concert"
- Rejoice - Werchter Festival 1981
- Womanfish - TV Gaga, 1/30/1986
- Hawkmoon 269 - Lovetown Documentary
- The Wanderer - Johnny Cash special
- Slow Dancing - ZooTV Radio Broadcast
- Holy Joe - K-Mart Press Conference
- North And South Of The River - Omagh Tribute
- The Hands That Built America - 2003 Oscars
- A Man And A Woman - Bono/Edge Clinton Foundation
- Ordinary Love - Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
- The Little Things That Give You Away - Jimmy Kimmel Live
- You're The Best Thing About me - Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
- Get Out Of Your Own Way - 2017 MTV European Music Awards
- American Soul - Saturday Night Live
- Lights Of Home - At The BBC
- There Is A Light - At The BBC
- Love Is Bigger Than Anything In Its Way - At The BBC
- Different arrangement
- Spanish Eyes - Radio Broadcast of Denver 1987 R&H show - It's 1987 Bono and the only official release is 2009 Bono
- All I Want Is You - Lovetown Documentary - Best quality 80s version in existence, the next most recent official release is the Popmart version
- Mofo - 1997 MTV EMAs - Hard stop instead of segue used in full shows
- Please - 1997 MTV VMAs - Same
- Stuck In A Moment - Late Night With Conan O'Brien 2005 - The Vertigo Tour hybrid arrangement that starts acoustic and finishes full
- Crazy Tonight - Late Night With David Letterman 2009 - Performance of album arrangement
- Important to the band's history
- Bad - Live Aid
Selected Bootlegs
Finally, for all those songs that, after all of the official releases and selected broadcast performances, still have no representation in the competition*, selected bootlegs - in the form of mostly soundboard audio or pro-shot video available on youtube - will be competing. I selected these, because there is really no way for everyone to vote on which boots to include, and besides, when you're looking for good performance+good quality recording+available on YT, a lot of these kind of select themselves.
*Again, this includes songs that were played live but never received a studio release, ex. We Love You/North Star/Glastonbury/Return Of The Stingray Guitar.
Here they are:
- Another Day - Dublin, 2/26/1980 (They signed their first Island contract after this show)
- Shadows And Tall Trees - Dublin, 2/26/1980
- Tomorrow - War tour, London, 3/22/1983, w/Steven Wickham on violin
- Like A Song - War Tour, 2/26/1983(obviously, only performance ever)
- Wire - Unforgettable Fire Tour, Montreal, 3/27/1985, soundboard
- Indian Summer Sky - Unforgettable Fire Tour, Nantes, 10/23/84, soundboard
- Red Hill Mining Town - See below*
- Mothers Of The Disappeared, Rattle And Hum outtake from Tempe
- She's A Mystery To Me, Lovetown Point Depot 12/30/1989 - I'm including this because the official release is from 2004 and this version with Lovetown Bono needs to be represented
- Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses, ZooTV Stockholm aka "Dancing Zoo TV", 6/11/1992, pro-shot
- So Cruel - Hershey Soundcheck(it's a better, longer performance than either of the actual ZooTV show performances)
- Acrobat - Hershey Soundcheck
- Babyface - ZooTV Wembley Stadium, 8/11/1993
- The First Time - Vertigo Buenos Aires, 3/1/2006 or 3/2/2006
- Do You Feel Loved - Popmart Las Vegas
- If God Will Send His Angels - Popmart Las Vegas
- Miami - Popmart Leeds, 8/28/1997(this is a radio broadcast synced to a vhs video recording)
- Sweetest Thing - Elevation Toronto, 5/25/2001, IEM
- The Ground Beneath Her Feet - Irving Plaza, New York, 12/5/2000
- Wild Honey - Elevation East Rutherford, 6/22/2001
- We Love You(live only) - Elevation Antwerp, 8/6/2001
- Crumbs From Your Table - Vertigo New York, 10/7/2005
- Fast Cars - Vertigo Oakland 11/9/2005
- Window In The Skies - Vertigo Tokyo 12/4/2006
- North Star(live only) - 360, unknown date
- Glastonbury(live only) - 360 Frankfurt, 8/10/2010
- Return Of The Stingray Guitar(live only) - 360 Buenos Aires, 4/3/2011
- California - I+E Chicago, 7/2/2015, IEM
- Volcano - I+E Chicago 6/25/2015
- The Troubles - I+E New York, 7/27/15
- Lucifer's Hands - I+E Chicago 6/28/2015
- The Crystal Ballroom - I+E Chicago 6/29/2015
*Last but not least: We know that at least one JT30 show was recorded, but we don't know if or when it will be released. However, there is a really good multi-cam shot full JT30 gig from Dublin - 7/22/2017 - on YT, and, while I was originally just looking for a good RHMT, I've decided to allow the entirety of it into the competition. That way, RHMT, and all of those performances of JT side 2 songs that hadn't been played in forever, and the new arrangment of BD, etc, will get a chance.
So, that is the complete list of what is eligible. I want to emphasize that absolutely everything will be linked to YT and, when not available on YT, to Spotify. So you do not have to know everything by heart, when it's time to vote on something, it will be a click away for you.
II. Format
One of the most difficult parts of getting this survivor off the ground has been how to deal with the fact that there are so many songs that are represented so many times amongst the eligible material. They way we're going to handle it, is you're all going to pick one version of each song in the first phase of the competition. Here's how it'll work:
Phase 1 - Ballots:
All of the songs that appear in multiple places in the eligible material will be organized into four ballots:
1980-1983 Preliminary Ballot
1984-1989 Preliminary Ballot
1990-1999 Preliminary Ballot
2000-Present Preliminary Ballot
Each ballot will get its own thread, and will consist of two sections - "Pick Three" and "Pick One"
Simply put, for songs that are represented five or more times in the eligible material, you will pick your top three performances, and for songs that are represented between two and four times in the eligible material, you will pick your single top performance. This is to at least try to combat the possibility of two popular versions of a song splitting the vote and allowing a third one to advance. In either category, the version of a song that receives the most votes will advance and all other versions of that song will be eliminated.
Just to give you an idea, here is an example of a "Pick Three" song:
Until The End Of The World
Zoo TV Live From Sydney
Popmart Live From Mexico City
Elevation 2001 Live From Boston
U2 Go Home
360 At The Rose Bowl
U22
Innocence+Experience Live In Paris
and an example of a "Pick One" song:
The Unforgettable Fire
Live From Paris 1987
360 At The Rose Bowl
U22
(When the ballots are actually posted, everything will be linked to YT, and Spotify where YT isn't available)
So it will take some time for you all to go through the ballots and post your votes. The individual ballot threads will have specific instructions for how to post your votes, format, etc.
I'm doing this phase with text-vote ballots because the only other option is to have an individual poll for every individual song, and that would just clutter EYKIW to hell, as well as take too long.
My hope and plan is to post the four ballot threads at the same time and then give everyone two weeks to get their ballots in.
Phase 2 - First Round Of Polls
Once the ballots are finished and one version of each of those songs has been chosen, they will be combined with all of the songs for whom there is only one version in the eligible material(and thus weren't on the ballots). This giant pool will then be again divided into sections by what I'll call micro-eras - Boy/October, War, UF, JT/R&H, AB/Zooropa, Passengesr/Pop, ATYCLB/HTDAAB, and NLOTH/SOI/SOE. The reason we have to divide into smaller eras here is because polls here can't have more than 30 options, and the goal is to get to a point where we only have 30 songs left for each of the four main eras - 80-83, 84-89, 90-00, and 00-Present - because that is what's needed for the next phase.
The way this will work, is I'll simply put up a poll for the 'micro-eras' that need trimming and tell you exactly how many tracks need to be eliminated from that 'micro-era'. So, for example, I might say, 'vote for your two LEAST favorite tracks' for Passengers/Pop or 'vote for your four LEAST favorite tracks' for Boy/October, and then that's what you'd do.
(The War and UF 'micro-eras' will get byes, i.e. nothing will need to be eliminated from them in this phase, as they both have small numbers of tracks, and only a small amount of fat will need to be trimmed from Boy/October and JT/R&H in order to make the even 30 needed for 80-83 and 84-90, when combined with War and UF respectively.)
Each of these polls would go for a day or two, and in this way, we'd be able to trim down some of the 'micro-eras', combine them, and get it down to 30 songs for each of the four eras, which sets us up for...
Phase 3 - Quarterfinals and Semifinals
This will work exactly the same way the Non-Album Track Survivor I ran last year did.
There will be a Quarterfinal poll for 80-83, 84-90, 90-99, and 00-Present, each open for two days. You will pick your fifteen favorite tracks for each. The top fifteen from each of the former two will advance and combine to create the 80-90 semifinal, while the top fifteen from each of the latter two will advance and combine to create the 90-Present semifinal.
Those two semifinals will run the same way, for two days, each, and after that, the top fifteen from each will advance and combine to create the final 30.
Phase 4 - Traditional Survivor
From here, it'll just be a regular survivor, vote for your least favorite, one elimination a day, until only one track is left standing.
And that's the format as of now.
III. Timeline
I don't want this to drag on forever and ever, because interest dissipates the longer it goes on. I am hopeful that, from the time the the ballots are posted and voting actually starts, we can get this done in roughly two to two-and-a-half months' time. I see it breaking down like this:
Phase 1 - Ballots - 2 weeks
Phase 2 - First Round Of Polls - 2 weeks
Phase 3 - Quarterfinals and Semifinals - 2 weeks
Phase 4 - Traditional Survivor - 1 month
IV. Conclusion
That's about all I've got. I feel like like I've laid it all out in a good amount of detail. This thread is to gauge interest and for general discussion. I do want to say that if I don't sense enough interest here, I won't go through with it. It's a lot of effort and I don't want to do it if only three people are interested.
But I'm hopeful that enough of you will be into it(I also hope that no one gets burned out on U2 doing the survey and this back-to-back). This should be a fun thing to do for everybody.
I'm open to questions and suggestions on everything.
Have at it.
